Pinching procumbens?

[treeman]

So it has generally been accepted that we avoid pinching junipers with fingers (especially shimpaku) to avoid the little brown dead ends we get when we do pinch. Instead we are told to use scissors, go down further into the branch and cut off the entire branchlet etc etc. Ok that fine, but when you are trying to keep a really tight foliage mass on procumbens, it doesn't work in my experience. The reason is the there is not enough branching further in to cut to. Procumbens seems to send up a long shoot which only eventually branches at the tip and by then it's too long. The only solution I can come up with is to pinch (or cut) off this long shoot about half way. The shoot subsequently stops growing but that then stimulates more compact shoots at it's base. When these are strong enough. you can remove the original shoot. I'd like to find a better way but I don't know if there is one.
Any suggestions?

Here's a procumbens after removing all the old dead needles with tweezers (another pain) but before pinching. You can see the long unbranched shoots.

P1100791.JPG

This is after pinching all the shoots back. It stimulates more shoots and back-budding. I'll post a pic tomorrow.

P1100794 - Copy.JPG

[shibui]

I have also heard recently that some high profile bonsai growers are recommending pruning shimaku (and other junipers?) with scissors but I did not think it was for the reasons you have outlined Treeman. I understood the original idea was not to use scissors because pruning with scissors can cut through the leaves and that's what makes the tips appear brown. Finger pinching was promoted because it does not cut the leaves and they don't go brown. Note that careful pruning with scissors so that you only cut between the leaves does not cause browning. Also note that, even rough scissor pruning resulting in brown tips is only temporary. Cut leaves that have turned brown will soon fall off and the tree will look green again so this is only a problem if you want your tree in show condition.
The problem with continual finger pinching is that the foliage pads get far too congested and inner shoots do not develop or die. I believe that's why these experts have started to promote occasional (regular?) pruning with scissors - to thin out foliage pads and shorten long shoots. I believe this is supposed to allow foliage pads to stay more compact with less dead foliage.

Personally, I use both techniques when appropriate. Both have slightly different results and are both useful at different times.
Shimpaku has compact growth habit so we can get away with occasional pinching and very little pinching for a few years but eventually the same problems you have outlined for procumbens occurs - long shoots with not enough branching. It is much more obvious in procumbens and other junipers with longer growth habit though.
I think you are right on with pinching or pruning new shoots early to stimulate new buds then occasional harder pruning to cut back to lower shoots. This could be the juniper equivalent of decandling black pines or pinching the tips of Japanese maples before they elongate. Both stop strong, long shoots with long internodes and force the tree to produce more compact side shoots as replacements.

[Pearcy001]

I have never really gone too hard with pinching back junipers, as I was told (or possibly read) that too much can kill the tree. This has made me really hesitant to do it.

Is this more to do with how often it is done, or to do with what percentage of the foliage tips are pinched back?

As in if I was to only pinch back the tree once a year, but I pinched back every single tip, would this kill the tree?

Or would I be better the only pinch the over extended shoots as required and leaving all others for the health of the tree?

I ask this in relation to both maintenance and attempting to get back budding (in case they're different).

Cheers,
Pearcy.

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[Raging Bull]

I only have experience with my juniper chinensis pyramidalis in this regard. I carefully pluck/pinch the tips on almost all the branches where I want the pads to develop/thicken and this is working with small side shoots growing quite consistently from just behind where the tip was pinched . The only ones I don't pinch is where I want longer growth, e.g. at or near the apex. So far I haven't had any die-back or problems with this approach

[shibui]

The junipers I have worked with are just as resilient as most other species. I regularly take more than half the foliage off junipers and have not experienced problems. When pinching I try to do the entire tree and have not noticed any issues with that either. Shimapku don't need pinching very often so I do mine maybe 2-3 times over summer but I think they could be pinched or pruned more often if you need to. I have started a few shohin sized shimpaku and expect that they will need more frequent pinchimg/pruning to maintain small, tighter foliage.

Junipers can have problems budding if all the foliage is removed so don't prune back to bare wood. I always leave some foliage if I want the branch to stay alive.

If shimpaku is pruned or pinched very hard it sometimes produces spiky juvenile shoots for a while but no need to panic, just fingertip pinch all over as usual and it will start producing adult scale foliage again within a year.
Note that I work mainly with J. chinensis - shimpaku and I assume that other species may react differently.

[Max]

Nice tree Treeman....when you pinch...how much is taken off? 4-6 needles or just the very tip? is this done by twisting then pulling?

[Chris Di Nola]

Hi guys
I use both pinch and prune, pinch on the young foliage to thicken pads and prune to remove the heavier stuff and unwanted foliage to thin the pads out as needed.

This is a great topic Treeman thanks for starting it.

[Matt S]

My understanding of the latest advice to not pinch Junipers was that they produce most of their energy from their tips and constant pinching weakens and eventually kills the tree. Luckily I've never had the time to keep a juniper constantly pinched so I've never had a problem!

This is one of those pieces of advice that gains hold in the community but I don't know if anyone has actually tested it? I originally read about it in Michael Hagedorn's blog.

My regime with procumbens and squamata is what Treeman outlines - reduce the foliage by cutting with scissors back to a growing tip to encourage backbudding. I'd also add to leave a few shoots higher up the branch to be used as replacements for when lower shoots get too heavy.

I'd be interested in hearing how often others clear out the foliage, and what time of year they do it.

Thanks for raising this Mike, it's a topic that needs clarification.

Matt.

[brpm17]

I have noticed with some of my Junipers that after a period of time the foliage changes from the "needle" form to more elongated shoots. Have done some reading on the subject and it appears that this is normal!!
Does anyone concur with this? Any advice is appreciated.

Cheers Brendan.

[treeman]

Seems this thread is morphing into general juniper pinching/pruning. Good!

Here is another pic of procumbens after pinching all the new/current shoots.

P1110071.JPG

Now here is one after one month. You can see the old pinched shoots which have stoped dead, and the new ones appearing et their bases.
You can also see the ones which were not pinched have continued to grow so obviously you can do this in stages but I think it's just as effective if you pinch all the shoots in one go.
I will be able to remove the older shoots at their base soon and be left with nice clean foliage. Of course this means the procumbens will not look it's best all the time but what bonsai does?

P1110072.JPG

Here is a shimpaku pruned without pinching as recommended by the Americans.

P1110067.JPG

And here is one partly pruned and partly pinched. Brown tips which is to be expected.

P1110070.JPG

Now here is an example of pinching as recommended by the old masters in Japan. In this case Kyuzo Murata.
Before pinching.........(centre of pic)

P1110073.JPG

After pinching. As you can see, he recommends pinching out only the very smallest tip - usually the tiny centre as they open out in threes.
This results in the very dense clouds of foliage which is/was considered one of the most beautiful qualities of shimpaku.

P1110074.JPG

The theories.
It is claimed that pinching should be avoided for the following reasons - as I understand them

1- It leaves no brown tips and the tree always looks clean.... Yes there is no doubt about that, but who has the time to cut out the finest green tips at their bases to avoid the browning - if it's even possible? If you cut a little deeper, you start to remove the desirable density. The browning which results from light pinching is covered up by new shoots in a matter of weeks.

2- It keeps the tree healthier because it allows for more auxin production and keeps roots growing.....
Well I'm not so sure. The Japanese recommendation (at least the older one) is to pinch constantly during the growing season whenever you notice a tip extending. This will have almost zero effect on auxin production. Periodic thinning out once or twice a year as recommended now, will remove more auxin producing tips than occasional light pinching because it is done in one sitting. However, even this does not seem to be as important as stated. As long as the tree is healthy to begin with you can remove ALL the growing tips and it starts it's recovery almost immediately! The tree just needs a certain amount of time to fully recover. In the growing season, it will have the same mass of foliage as it did before the pinching with about 2 or 3 months!

3- it keeps the tree more open and allows light into the interior......
Yes this is very important, but this is also standard procedure which needs to be done once per year anyway. It takes longer than one year for the inner branches to start dying off due to lack of light. There is no need to keep the tree permanently open. If you prefer the look of your shimpaku to be more open, then that's what you do. If you like the dense clouds then you pinch.

Does it really matter? Probably not. It's a matter of choice. Either technique will work and if done correctly, neither will affect the health of the tree as far as I can see. As I said, I have not been able to get around pinching procumbens quite hard at least every 2 years or so.
So the current recommendation to ''NEVER PINCH JUNIPERS'' is a bit over-stated IMO.

Comments? Show us your junipers (close up if possible) and explain your techniques..

[treeman]

As in if I was to only pinch back the tree once a year, but I pinched back every single tip, would this kill the tree?

As you can see from my pics Pearcy, it certainly does not kill the tree. Perhaps if your tree was already very week for some other reason it may seriously weaken it but on a healthy tree there is no problem.

[treeman]

Nice tree Treeman....when you pinch...how much is taken off? 4-6 needles or just the very tip? is this done by twisting then pulling?

About half. I just grab the base with one hand and rip off the top of it. Come to think about it, if I'm going to go back and remove those shoots later, why don't I just use scissors and cut them in half to begin with???

[Daluke]

"Never pinch" - probably something pushed in publications by scissor companies

[Matt S]

Thanks for this detailed post, Mike, really useful to have all this information in one place.

A question for you - if you want to show your juniper at it's best, how long before showing it would you clear out the foliage?

Matt.

[treeman]

Thanks for this detailed post, Mike, really useful to have all this information in one place.

A question for you - if you want to show your juniper at it's best, how long before showing it would you clear out the foliage?

Matt.

I guess it depends. If you are talking about the procumbens, I would say that you need to wait 4 months after the kind of heavy cut back that I did. And that's of you trim in say August or December. If you do it now, you will have to wait 7 months. You can show the tree anytime after a just light trim. Especially shimpaku done with scissors only. If you really want to show a perfect shimpaku with perfect foliage don't use fingers.