I want to understand

[Tachigi]

Between BT and here I have always been interested in bonsai in OZ. The threads have been varied as to what ya'll use as potting medium. Whats available to you and what mighty it be comparable to that I could relate to. What goes in your soil mix and in what ratio...no I don't want you to divulge any super secret recipe ...just rough estimates ratios.

Some of the recent threads I've read have me going Mmmmmmmmm and scratching my head....enlighten a curious non native.

[aaron_tas]

hello there my northern hemispherical friend

i use crushed gravel, any gravel with no lime in it, 5-7mm a bit smaller for shohin.

80%gravel, 20%coir peat in most cases. i vary slightly 70%-90% gravel from tree to tree depending on the type of tree.

no smoke and mirrors here

[kcpoole]

Hey Tom
I use 1/3 Zeolite, 2/3 Diatomite.

But I am one the few that use only inorganinc mixes

Ken

[Tachigi]

hello there my northern hemispherical friend

i use crushed gravel, any gravel with no lime in it, 5-7mm a bit smaller for shohin.

80%gravel, 20%coir peat in most cases. i vary slightly 70%-90% gravel from tree to tree depending on the type of tree.

no smoke and mirrors here

Hey Aaron,
Ok...I'm down with the gravel...actually pretty cutting edge from my perspective in the ratio your using. There is a nursery here that grows landscape stock in nothing but gravel and have amazing results.I'm talking the whole spectrum, maples to pines. The system I believe is called the red river growing system...no digging holes...they lay cloth down, a layer of crushed stone from none other than the red river. Place the trees and then go with another layer of crushed river rock. They have a pretty constant flow of water and fert and their trees grow like weeds.

The use of coir surprised me at first as here it gets pretty mushy after a short bit. However after thinking about it the gravel / coir ratio might minimize that a bit with all that rock? Okay here is the kicker question...how hot does it get in your area? If it gets really hot I would think that your stone would get unmercifully hot.

[Tachigi]

Hey Tom
I use 1/3 Zeolite, 2/3 Diatomite.

But I am one the few that use only inorganinc mixes

Ken

Hi Ken,

So I went to Wikipedia as I'm unfamiliar with' zeolite. It sounds like turface (calcined clay) that occurs naturally from a volcanic source. WOW...volcanic turface...lol can't get much better than that...absorption and volcanic minerals all rolled up into one. So is this the right interpretation?


Why is it that inorganic soil mixes are uncommon ... I find that curious.

[Pup]

G,day Tom As you know in most cases when you have 10 enthusiasts you have 10 mixes.

Mine is 2parts Akadama 2parts crushed gravel as in red river mine comes from Carnarvon river in the north of Western Australia 1 part coco peat

When I wet the coco peat to soften it, I then let it dry out. The only difference is when I use it for Shohin and Mame i use 1-2mm size the normal mix is 4-5mm size.
Our summer temps can and often do get to 40 + Celsius.
We are moving into late spring and our temps are getting to the mid 20 with the occasional day to the low 30s.
This is Western Australia the Southern foothills of the darling scarp.

Cheers Pup

[Bretts]

Hey Tom I will get to the various substrates I have been experimenting with soon but first I will try to explain what zeolite is like.

I searched for turface here years ago and I could not find anything as such that was used like turface is for base ball fields? What I understood it to be was a fired clay. So I grouped it with the kitty litter fired clay.
I just found this comparison.

From Mikey012076 Bonsai Tree Forums
Turface MVP is Aquatic Plant Soil it is the same stuff, they just clean it in water and dry it to take out the dust, I use pro, it is just smaller grains of Turface "calcined clay" it is heated clay that when heated makes small holes in the clay that hold water, i use the pro because it is smaller when you add top soil to it and aged pine bark it does not brake up and last longer then the larger Turface MVP that brakes down faster because of it size, but that is all up to how you want to make your soil....

Now we do have Aquatic plant soil Although the packaging that I get this in does not state what it actually is but in conversing with KC and comparing it is very much like Diatomite if not exactly the same thing.
So from the above statement I would say that Turface is comparable to Diatomite. Although I thought turface broke down over time quicker than diatomite. (more on this later) The zeolite we use is harder.

Some people may not realise there are actually different quality grades of zeolite. Learning from you guys over there I searched the local mine supplies store for what you guys call "Oil Dry" or something that is used to soak up oil spills. I found one and it was zeolite. Took it home and found it was a white colour. It could not be crushed with the fingers but could be split with the finger nails. It did not break down redily in water. I compared it to a kitty litter clay.
I had been in discussions with the suppliers of Castle Mountain Zeolite on how I could get hold of thier product and after purchasing this white Zeolite I called them again. I was informed that their Zeolite was different by a few million years
I finally got hold of a bag of the top grade zeolite from Bonsai Environment. They used it in their soil mix and I was told they would sell it to you if you asked nicely.
Since then Ray Nesci Bonsai Nursery usually has bags of zeolite for sale in the soil section of the nursery.
The zeolite we use looks and feels very similar to a red brown gravel. The only real difference is if you look closley you will see the rock actually has very fine holes in it.. So it is a hard rock that will not break down in our life time that is porous. It also has various nutrient and or mineral attributes as well.

There has been a product advertised in Bonsai Focus called Chabasi this is actually another grade of zeolite. From the picture they show it looks more porus almost like pumice.
I would think you should be able to get hold of some there. When I contacted them they did not have a distributor here but they asked if I wanted to be one
It would be great if you could get hold of a bag and let us know what it is like. Walter has endorsed the product stating it is as good as Akadama if not better.

The two top container looks like the zeolite that we use

zeolite.jpg

And the company supplying it
http://www.cmzeolites.com.au/index.html
Their horticultural notes
http://www.cmzeolites.com.au/applicatio ... olites.pdf

[Matthew]

up my way been very humid and hot i use more organics then my southern friends. A mixture usually 40% crushed sifted granite, 10% zeolite, 25% river sand and %25 fine decomposed pine bark. For junipers and pines i up the granite to 60% for maples i up the pine bark and sand. For figs i up the pine bark. for the last 4 years our rainfall here has been pretty bad so i relpy on a mix that will handle these conditions yet drain well.

[Pup]

Tom I have just read though this thread again. Thank you for it is interesting to note, as I said different mixes.

Our club Sensei Hirotoshi Saitoh, student of Hiroshi Takeyama.
Told our members that the mix used in there nursery was for miscellaneous, trees which is any thing other than Coniferous. was 100% Akadama. For Coniferous trees 50% crushed gravel 50% Akadama. Some of our members have adopted this.
It is working for them as is Satsuki and other Azaleas going into pure Kanuma.

Cheers Pup

[kcpoole]

Forgot to add a link to the Diatomite I use now
http://www.mtsylviadiatomite.com.au/dia ... kleensorb/

[kcpoole]

Hey Tom
I use 1/3 Zeolite, 2/3 Diatomite.

But I am one the few that use only inorganinc mixes

Ken

Hi Ken,

So I went to Wikipedia as I'm unfamiliar with' zeolite. It sounds like turface (calcined clay) that occurs naturally from a volcanic source. WOW...volcanic turface...lol can't get much better than that...absorption and volcanic minerals all rolled up into one. So is this the right interpretation?


Why is it that inorganic soil mixes are uncommon ... I find that curious.

Dunno why but over here Mixed with no organics is very rare. Wen I tell and show people what I plant into, I get looks like I am from mars. and that is from very experience growers too.

Without active participation in internet discussions then I probably would not have know to try it out.
I Think BonsaiKC on the old BT did some tests with pines in various mixed and the performance of the ones in non organic ones convinced me to give it a go.

Maybe we are so isolated here we had never been privvy to the techniques of soil there, or maybe the names and equivalent products are so hard to obtain that no one tried.

I am trying to get the message out wherever I can , and Bretts is a great experimenter too.

Ken

[Bretts]

Hey KC how long does the diatomite take to break down, if at all?

[tr3nt29]

...how hot does it get in your area? If it gets really hot I would think that your stone would get unmercifully hot.

Hi Tachigi,
Don't think any one gave you an answer on this question...well I live in north Victoria on the Murray River (Swan Hill to be exact); and it not uncommon for us to have week long periods well over 40c, even up to 47c (not sure f).(Pup, you'd get even hotter than that over in WA yeah. ) Pretty hard to keep motivated on those days. As for the stone, while I find the top layer gets really hot, the rest is cooler than with any other kind of dressing.

Trent.

[kcpoole]

Hey KC how long does the diatomite take to break down, if at all?

I have had Some original Maidenwell in a jar of water now for 2 years. Constantly immersed and and shaken ever week or so. It is a hard as the day it went in there with no signs of breakdown at all

Have just repeated with the new stuff from Mt sylvia and I suspect it will perform the same.

I have had in pots with plants now for 2 years and is still as firm as the day it was put in originally

I have repotted several trees twice now, and all i do is shake out the roots to collect the substrate, rinse it out and reuse.

5 years will be the minimum Methinks

[kvan64]

Forgot to add a link to the Diatomite I use now
http://www.mtsylviadiatomite.com.au/dia ... kleensorb/

Please let me know where I could buy this stuff. I can even find any akadama or anything besides typical standard bonsai mix here in Brisbane