Proportional Branch Thickness

[bonscythe]

Hi all,
This is kind of a broad question and I know it is subject to each particular tree but i'll give an example aswell, in regards to say a developing Ficus rubiginosa - How thick should a primary branch get before it should be chopped to get secondary branching?
I have a few in development and want to keep the branches in proportional thickness from low to high so I have been letting the bottom ones grow freely to thicken and maintaining/trimming the top to balance the energy flow etc. but now I'm at the stage where next spring the lower branches will be ready to cut back to start back budding.
I guess a better way of asking this is how much extra thickening can be expected on a fig during the ramification stage once the branch is at the desired length?
I don't wanna get too far ahead of myself and end up losing branches in the future because they are too thick/thin I guess..any tips?
Cheers all!
P.S - After reading the other thread on trunk:height ratio I don't wanna stir any arguments up, just would like some rough idea of how this will pan out

[Bretts]

Rough idea is I would think the same as when growing a trunk. Say you cop the trunk and are growing a new leader. When do you chop the new leader again. The saying is grow your branches like you grew your trunk.
So it is when it is very close to the thickness you want it.
How thick do you want your branches compared to your trunk. That is dependent on alot of things such as the ratio of the trunk and the style you are going for. I am sure there is a guide to this that can help but I think the best bet is to post a picture for a quick answer, we know home much rules are hated!

[bonscythe]

Thanks Brett, that clears it up!
I've got some growing to do now..

[Gerard]

Chop first, ask questions later.
Even if you are getting not that close to the desired thickness. If you decide that you need to let it grow freely again next season that is OK.
By attempting to achieve the desired thickness all at one time you may get a result which lacks taper.
Take small steps.

[bodhidharma]

What you have to remember is that as the branches grow so does the trunk so the proportions stay relativity the same. Where you encounter problems is on collected trees where the trunk is already established then you have to let the branches grow and cut back in, probably 2 yearly intervals. A good rule of thumb is to let the branch grow for the aforementioned time and then cut back to the first off branch or secondary and repeat the process. Use wire to keep the branch at the correct angle but you will still have to cut. This is classic clip and grow. All the better if a sacrifice branch appears but you will have to cut that to when you cut the branch back

[craigw60]

I am always very cautious about thickening branches while the tree is young, remember your tree has the potential to live for a very long time and the branches will thicken throughout its life. Its much more difficult to keep branches fine and very easy to thicken them.
Craig

[bonscythe]

Thanks for all the replies everyone, I have a much better idea now of what to expect!
Cheers

[shibui]

I prefer to grow branches slowly. I have too many trees where the base of the branches are too straight because they were fast grown. I am now having remove branches entirely or cut them back to the first side shoot and grow a new one with character to suit the tree.
I find the first growth of a shoot is rapid with long internodes leaving straight sections where no shoots will grow. Later growth has shorter internodes which allows closer side shoots, better density and more character. Branches wired to give movement often look artificial and there's still the problem of no buds between nodes that could provide side shoots.
In short, be prepared to cut back further to produce better branches.
Bodhi's ideas that both branches and trunk thicken together is correct but maybe not the proportions - 2mm increase in a 2mm branch doubles it (adds 50%)while 2mm increase in a 20mm trunk only adds 10%.
Branches, particularly upper ones can quickly get out of proportion if allowed to grow unchecked. Selective defoliation and pruning are 2 good techniques to influence branch/ trunk thickness.

[bonscythe]

Thanks shibui,
I agree about the perception of growth being different

Bodhi's ideas that both branches and trunk thicken together is correct but maybe not the proportions - 2mm increase in a 2mm branch doubles it (adds 50%)while 2mm increase in a 20mm trunk only adds 10%.

These lower branches have been thickening very visibly but the trunk seems roughly the same, due to exactly what you said.
Cheers again

[63pmp]

What you do depends on the tree species, but for the sake of the conversation here is a picture from a Japanese catalog showing the development of a Japanese maple over 50 years.

While the ramification has certainly increased, the thickness of trunk and secondary trunks has not thickened dramatically, or enough to detract from the design of the tree. The thickness change is volume related, the volume of a 2mm addition to a 2mm branch will almost double the size of the branch, but the same volume addition to a trunk 50mm thick will be inconsequential.

Obviously it takes a long time to develop such ramification, and the tree was already old in 1962. I think its a mistake to start branch development too early, before the tree has developed a good trunk-line with good secondary trunks. You might notice that there are no straight sections in any of the trunks. With maples the Japanese seem to evolve everything at the same time, growing and developing the trees slowly. I'm not sure how one could rush a maple and still get the even taper and movement in the trunks which are so important.

Untitled-TrueColor-02.jpg

Paul

[Jamie]

gday bonscythe

the great thing about figs is you can go back to a trunk and regrow without a drama, if you have a look at Leongs book on ficus, he has a section in there on styling trees, one being cutting an existing trunk down to nothing and regrowing, look at where it was when cut back to nothing, and then in a few years how well developed it is,and the branching is all in comparison, what has been said already is very true about a 2mm branch doubling compared to the trunk, branches can be developed easy on ficus in general. to work on say an informal upright the way i would develop the branching would be to start from the bottom up as that will be the thickest branch, yes? yes!
because most trees are apically dominent what you can do is grow them accordingly, use it to your advantage, when the lowest branch is half the thickness you desire, build the next level, some of these levels can be developed at the same time, through the mid section of the tree through to the apex.

you cant really go wrong with figs mate, if something doesnt work right, cut it off at the right time, seal it and you will just about be able to guarantee a shoot will pop on or close to the cut area, and it wont take long to grow, i wouldnt use sacrifice branches to thicken them up as this can pump hem to quickly, as everyone has said grow branches slow, take your time and develop them right, the branching is just as important as the trunk, a good trunk with poor branching and placement will never be a decent tree.

jamie

[bonscythe]

Hi Jamie,

gday bonscythe

the great thing about figs is you can go back to a trunk and regrow without a drama, if you have a look at Leongs book on ficus, he has a section in there on styling trees, one being cutting an existing trunk down to nothing and regrowing, look at where it was when cut back to nothing, and then in a few years how well developed it is,and the branching is all in comparison, what has been said already is very true about a 2mm branch doubling compared to the trunk, branches can be developed easy on ficus in general. to work on say an informal upright the way i would develop the branching would be to start from the bottom up as that will be the thickest branch, yes? yes!

This is exactly what I have been doing, reading on the forum here and in Leong's great book but the trouble is there is not alot of actual text to read on the matter in the book, the pictorials have helped ten-fold but the descriptions are mostly just dates and/or whether it had been defoliated or neglected
The informal upright is basically the style I'm aiming for on most of them and they're coming along quickly. The bottom branches are the thickest at the moment, and they (for the most part) decrease proportionally, which is also good. I know the apex will come right back once I have the bottom sorted so I have been keeping ontop of that also.

you cant really go wrong with figs mate, if something doesnt work right, cut it off at the right time, seal it and you will just about be able to guarantee a shoot will pop on or close to the cut area, and it wont take long to grow, i wouldnt use sacrifice branches to thicken them up as this can pump hem to quickly, as everyone has said grow branches slow, take your time and develop them right, the branching is just as important as the trunk, a good trunk with poor branching and placement will never be a decent tree.

jamie

This is kind of more what I was getting at, in some instances I already have all-round proportional branch thickness and the lower branches will be coming into final range diameter-wise soon and length wise too so... if i cut them to begin secondary & tertiary branching while leaving the higher ones to continue to thicken/lengthen undisturbed, the tree will try to send the bulk of it's energy to the uncut growing-tips/meristems leaving the lower branches less energy?
I guess I don't wanna make the mistake of losing branches just because I didn't maintain the already good overall proportions by trying to extend a particular branch to the desired length.

Sorry I was a little long-winded,
Thanks for your help

[63pmp]

So the issue is energy balance. How to thicken one lower branch without thickening the rest of the tree?

Paul

[bonscythe]

Yeah I think so Paul, should I let all the branches lengthen till they all reach the desired length or tip them as the reach the desired length singularly?
Sorry I think I am even confusing myself now

[63pmp]

Do you have any photo's so we can gauge the development of the branch?

Energy balance is a big complicated subject, so I'm going out on a limb here, all this is my humble opinion and should in no way be taken as gospel.

But in a few lines, this is what I do;

Assume we are starting after a repot or light pruning, or starting in spring (which is a good place to start)

The aim in energy balancing is to increase the number of apical buds on the lower branch, this will improve its vigor.

Try to reduce the number of buds and leaves on the top of the tree. The aim is to increase the amount of sunlight the lower branch is getting.

On the weak branch don't cut anything, but reduce internode length on emerging stems by removing new leaves as they emerge from the stem apex. Do this while they are still wrapped in their sheath. Do not damage the apical meristem, do this two or three times as the stem emerges from an activated dormant bud. Leaves control internode length, so removing them stops stem elongation. Let the stem grow till thick enough. This way you do not have to cut back to old wood to get new branches, but will have several nodes to choose new branch direction.

Control lateral bud break by judicious removal of the apical meristem.

Maintain stem transpiration by leaving several mature leaves on the stem

So you might have a stem with six nodes on it when you deem it thick enough, The lowest two nodes will have no leaves, remove the top leaf with apical meristem, which leaves three leaves to maintain nutrient flow from the roots. New shoots should develop on the bare internodes at the base of the stem, or they may develop at the bud on the top leaf. If it develops at the top of the stem, remove that leaf and bud. Once again, when the bud breaks and a new stem emerge remove the first couple of leaves and then let the stem grow. Keep doing this until you increase the number of apical buds on the branch by developing ramification.

Constantly reduce buds and leaves on vigorous upper branches and apex of plant.

When you repot try and keep the roots feeding the branch long, don't trim them so much, but be harsh on other roots. Aim to keep feeding that branch by having more roots on it, this will give it a head start on the other parts of the tree. Feed the branch by placing feed block over its roots, while reducing feed to other parts of the tree.

If the tree is dormant, only remove leaves at the base of existing shoots, buds will develop here, while thinning leaves on the upper part of the tree to let light onto the lower branch. Wait till tree starts growing and do as above.

Hope this makes ense, it's a complicated topic.

Paul