Air Layer - Grape?

[waltersh]

Hi All!

I was visiting my parents yesterday afternoon and my mother asked me about how my bonsais were getting on and whether I wanted to attempt to take some of her Grapevine from the backyard.
It seems like a fun challenge, and its a massive vine so no big loss if it doesn't work out (always a good thing!)
The vine itself is 122 years old (according to grandma and dad) and has a MASSIVE trunk on it.. I took some pictures of some of the smaller parts of the Vine. How long are those supposed to live anyway?!

(Sorry about the bad photos, took quickly on the phone in a bit of a hurry!)




So what I'm wanting to know is,
1: Would Air layering be the best method for this vine? and If so,
2: Is it possible to perform it on a really old vine?

Something like this would be awesome to achieve, but I think the vine is a different type.. oh well! haha


Cheers!

[waltersh]

?

[MattA]

Hi Hannah,

Sorry I missed your initial post. First off let me say i have never tried to air layer a grape vine. Now having said that, they strike easily from hardwood cuttings in winter so I should think layering wouldnt be a problem.

I would set it in late winter & look to remove when the bag is full of roots. Or you could set it now & check in early spring, I would be surprised if there wasnt enough root by then to support it, there is still a long growing season.

The thing with layers is to make sure you have a big enough bag to allow enough roots to form to support what you will eventually remove. IE the bigger the branch you want the more medium you need for more roots. In the early days I lost a few big layers because I did not provide enough room for roots to support the new tree when it was removed.

If you are prepared to provide lots of after care it is possible to get away with removing layers with very little or even no root, as long as there is callous, tho it is a risky business & means alot more work than if it has lots of healthy roots to grow on with.

With proper care & management I have seen vines that are several hundred years old. One french vintner told me the reason his wines were so good was the fact the vines were sooo old... the youngest vine he had was 150yrs old & he made the most divine reds & fortified wines. He also claimed the unique training system was a factor, each vine in the row had actually fused into its neighbour thereby forming one huge netwrok of vine with multiple root systems... (I didnt describe that very well, if your interested I can draw a rough sketch to show how it works)

Good luck & look forward to hearing how you go with them. And seeing what you take off.

Matt

[Kyushu Danji]

I would set it in late winter & look to remove when the bag is full of roots. Or you could set it now & check in early spring, I would be surprised if there wasnt enough root by then to support it, there is still a long growing season.

The thing with layers is to make sure you have a big enough bag to allow enough roots to form to support what you will eventually remove. IE the bigger the branch you want the more medium you need for more roots. In the early days I lost a few big layers because I did not provide enough room for roots to support the new tree when it was removed.

If you are prepared to provide lots of after care it is possible to get away with removing layers with very little or even no root, as long as there is callous, tho it is a risky business & means alot more work than if it has lots of healthy roots to grow on with.

That makes complete sense, but could the air layer still work by cutting back on foliage and unwanted branches, thereby reducing the amount of roots necessary to properly support the tree? I'm only asking because I have a few going at the moment and I just want to be safe and make sure they survive. (Sorry for getting off topic!)

[waltersh]

Cheers Matt, great advice there!! I will give this a shot in late winter and post some pictures here for a checkup!

[MattA]

That makes complete sense, but could the air layer still work by cutting back on foliage and unwanted branches, thereby reducing the amount of roots necessary to properly support the tree? I'm only asking because I have a few going at the moment and I just want to be safe and make sure they survive. (Sorry for getting off topic!)

Most gardening practice is common sense.. and its right on topic ...

Depending on the piece being layered, I often reduce the growth when removing. As you have them going already, if your worried about them not surviving you could leave them & remove during late winter. The vines are dormant then so there is nothing taking up resources, meaning less need for a big root system.

How long have they been on the parent tree for?

If theres roots showing you could unwrap & sort them out, removing those growing down or at the wrong level, then rebag, or better still use a pot/box & replace the sphagnum with your usual growing medium. When you do finally remove they will have a great nebari in the making & a bigger root system to allow for more wood to be kept. I have seen layers left in place for 2-3yrs with root work being done each season as per a normal bonsai, that was on large mature trees which needed a new nebari grown. They still need more care when finally removed but less reduction in the plant is needed.

If you can get hold of a copy check BT 48 & 49 for the story of a large mature beech that was layered over the course of 2yrs, #48 also has a great article on layering, with lots of examples to show the possibilities with numerous species. I had done more than a few before seeing those articles but since then they have contributed greatly to my successes... doesnt mean i always follow my own advice or experience (viewtopic.php?f=104&t=4245 and viewtopic.php?f=131&t=6331)

Any chance we can see some pics?

Matt

[Kyushu Danji]

That makes complete sense, but could the air layer still work by cutting back on foliage and unwanted branches, thereby reducing the amount of roots necessary to properly support the tree? I'm only asking because I have a few going at the moment and I just want to be safe and make sure they survive. (Sorry for getting off topic!)

Most gardening practice is common sense.. and its right on topic ...

Depending on the piece being layered, I often reduce the growth when removing. As you have them going already, if your worried about them not surviving you could leave them & remove during late winter. The vines are dormant then so there is nothing taking up resources, meaning less need for a big root system.

How long have they been on the parent tree for?

If theres roots showing you could unwrap & sort them out, removing those growing down or at the wrong level, then rebag, or better still use a pot/box & replace the sphagnum with your usual growing medium. When you do finally remove they will have a great nebari in the making & a bigger root system to allow for more wood to be kept. I have seen layers left in place for 2-3yrs with root work being done each season as per a normal bonsai, that was on large mature trees which needed a new nebari grown. They still need more care when finally removed but less reduction in the plant is needed.

If you can get hold of a copy check BT 48 & 49 for the story of a large mature beech that was layered over the course of 2yrs, #48 also has a great article on layering, with lots of examples to show the possibilities with numerous species. I had done more than a few before seeing those articles but since then they have contributed greatly to my successes... doesnt mean i always follow my own advice or experience (viewtopic.php?f=104&t=4245 and viewtopic.php?f=131&t=6331)

Any chance we can see some pics?

Matt

You can. I have done HEAPS..so I will post in another topic so as not to hijack hannah's original thread (sorry hannah )
Thanks for the heads up Matt

[waltersh]

Haha you didnt hijack mate!! those are questions and answers I needed to know anyway!! all useful!!

[Kyushu Danji]

Haha you didnt hijack mate!! those are questions and answers I needed to know anyway!! all useful!!

Good good. Hope your trident maple is doing ok! Made me very sad to read about that those flatmates of yours need a good telling off!

[waltersh]

I reckon, I gave them a good old lecture about it!! I feed and entertain their dogs when they're away, is watering some plants so hard??