General ground growing advice wanted

[MattA]

Hey all,

I am looking to put some more of my longer term projects in the ground and am interested in hearing others opinions regarding the best time to undertake planting etc. Amongst things being planted are some old rootbound nursery trees that will probably thank me for being released from the pots. I am also planting some cuttings & seed grown plants that are now ready for the ground.

I am also wanting to plant my double dragon back in the ground but am unsure if I should wait till next spring as it was only dug from the ground last spring. It filled the pot with roots in no time but are they still too fragile to move it back in the ground now? The ideal spot has come up for it to go back in the ground, plenty of water, full sun and room for me to be able to get right round her.

Would planting now be ok or waiting another month be better, or even waiting till next spring. All of them will be in the ground for atleast 5yrs so I dont mind which way.

Matt

[dannynovo]

)Hi Matt,
the root bound nursery trees anytime, but not on a hot day...hole twice the size of the pot....gypsum if the ground is clay....good composted soil, dymanic lifter and water in well, once planted....others might disagree, but i had a very successful native garden planted this way and the ground was heavy clay....(typical Newcastle ground )

Danny

ps which part of Newy are you from?

[shibui]

My experience with planting potbound trees into the ground has not resulted in good bonsai. They may grow in size but nebari is usually poor. Plants that are able to put out new roots at ground level are ok if planted deep to produce a new rootsystem above old potbound one.
The tree that has filled the pot with roots should be ok to plant out. Roots are only fragile for a few weeks before they harden up.

[MattA]

Hey Danny,

Yes typical newcastle clay, it has its good & bad qualities (I am a potter as well so I need clay).

The area I am looking to plant them had the lawn dug in about 3yrs ago then allowed to go fallow for a year. Topdressed with a load of compost, redug and covered in a 20cm deep pile of bush mulch, most of which is now composted away. I am going to spread another load of compost over & dig it all in before planting and topped with a deep layer of mulch once its all planted should see them about settled.

Trees to be planted out include, Michelia figo & 'Coco', Maples (collected & old nursery stock), Camellia, Wisteria (as above plus others), lily pilly & grevillea. I am sure i will grab a few others & some smaller bits to fill holes, more in the ground means more bench space to fill with even more trees

Shibui, thanks for the extra info. Most of the old nursery stock will require root work from minor to major over the coming years but i feel the individual trees are worth the time & effort. It is also part of my dilemma regarding planting now or waiting till spring. I would like to start getting them sorted right from the first planting & that will mean some fairly major root reduction. All the deciduous species are loaded with fresh buds just about to burst with the autumn flush...I guess its into it I go..

Thanks guys

Matt

[craigw60]

Hi Matt, Shibui is correct to plant out trees with a confused root system would be a disaster, I usually spend a couple of seasons preparing the roots on my trees before I put them in the ground which saves a lot of future heartache
Craigw

[LLK]

To shibui and craigw60: I agree with both of you regarding the planting of potbound trees in the ground. I tried it and was most surprised when planting a circular mess of potbound roots didn't result in a perfect rootball after a couple of years in the open ground, but still came out as a circular mess of tangled roots, only much bigger. But since Matt thinks the potbound trees are worth an extra effort, how about ground layering them? I did that with a really big trident maple that had a terrible nebari. Had to do it in 3 goes, over 3 years, each time cutting off a portion of the trunk base. It worked, though the root distribution wasn't ideal, but I guess with experience one could improve on that. I gave that tree away last year because it was too heavy for me to cope with, but I may still have a couple of photos of the cuts before the ground layering.

Lisa

[Matthew]

This is my first season of ground growing material. The most important thing i was taught early im this and bonsai as a whole is get the roots right. you get that right and the rest is usually easier. most material has started as 6 inch, some more advanced and some collected . With most stuff i have either put a tounique on or used a tile with a hole in to promote a new root system, hopefully even and flat. With the collected stuff it was harder but i cut tap roots off and back hard to almost nothing. i have seen no ill effects on the species i tried and i will lift each winter to assess and correct. Ill get pics of my grow areas tomorrow. Im currently trying ( trident and japanese maples, shimpaku and squamta junipers, black pines, crab apples which gorw like weeds here, plum , wild cherry which grow extremely quick, liquid amber, forensia, seji elm, contonester, satsuki azealas. Next season ill try more.

[lennard]

The most important thing to me is to lift the trees every year and do some work on the roots.

Trees with poor nebaris should be ground - layered or new roots formed by using a tourniquet. The tile - method must be employed quite early to save you work later on.

This tutorial has help me a lot:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6717

Lennard

[shibui]

The following relates to my experience here under my growing conditions and climate. Conditions in other areas and regimes may produce different results!

I generally leave trees in the ground for 2 years, sometimes 3. Most have not really got going after one year and its not worth disturbing them at that stage. The second year they just explode into growth and really put on some size. Roots are still quite small and easily cut with the spade after 2 years but still shoot back well after cutting back. After 3 years some dominant roots are getting a bit large and hard and you might need an axe. Some chinese elms that were left for 5 years needed a backhoe to dig and one of them bent the machine so it (the tree) is still there and getting bigger every year. Slow growers like shimpaku have hardly grown at all after only a year and are better left for 2.

[Petra]

So is the time now or do we wait till the trees are dormant

[shibui]

Petra, I try to plant late winter/ early spring when I know I can rootprune hard and arrange roots to produce a good nebari. If you are confident you can do the necessary root work now or have a tree that you know already has good root spread then you can plant now. I will still be waiting until spring - I have to dig some out to make room before any more can go in!

[MattA]

You cannot pot on or plant out anything with a tangled mass of roots & expect to get anything but a much harder mess to sort out in the future.

I should have stated in my first post... root work is needed & will be done when planting out and will require several years to sort out in stages, none are quick fix nor will they ever have perfect nebari (not that nature does perfect, that is a bonsai thing & i dont do bonsai)

Therein lies the reason for my posting.... would it be ok to do some rootwork now & plant out or is it better to wait until spring. All of the rootbound trees have been in there pots for atleast 10yrs without repotting. The maples have been in the same nursery pots & soil for over 20yrs!

Matt

[Ron]

Matt,

This article might be of interest:

"Intact Rootball Vs. Rootbound"

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/rootball.htm

Ron ...

[GavinG]

It sounds like you'll need drastic root work, so I'd tend to leave it till late winter. Maybe fertilise well before then.

Gavin

[MattA]

Hey Ron, thanks for the link, very interesting reading, even more so was this article on the same site http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/fallpot.htm

I have spent the last few days building another raised growing bed & surrounding parts of the garden. Today was just perfect for planting so a number of garden trees finally made it into the ground and also some potensai that need a few years growing on.. my big double dragon wisteria, a camellia, tropical rhodo, pussy willow and 2 very sorry old nursery maples...

I dont know what variety this one is but already standing about 130cm tall and having large leaves I may just keep it as a garden tree. I exposed the nebari & the nightmare of twisted & fused roots below were left untouched. If I decide to return it to a pot I will do a ground layer to fix them.

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When I slipped the second out of its pot the rootball was minimally matted around the outter edge. When I started poking into it the whole mass was predominantly made up of dead root, I cleared out all I could while keeping as much of the live root as possible which were then spread right out in the planting hole. There are 2 thick roots still pointing down that will need to be removed when it goes into a bonsai pot but otherwise I am happy with the nebari. Currently standing about 90cm tall.

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Matt