Pinus thunbergii JBP Seedlings

[Bretts]

Thought some may be interested in work I have been doing with JBP seedlings.

Three years on and have had mixed success. First seedlings sat in seedling trays for full year with no work. I set out to make seedling cuttings of them as described in Bonsai Today #12 but as many died from damping off I lost my nerve. Second year I separated about 1/3 of first years batch into various potting mixes. Trimmed tap root and also wired and twisted trunk The ones with 50/50 organic mix almost all did not survive but I think I was a little late re potting. Almost all with in-organic mix survived but that was only about 10
The only one potted in pure akadama took off showing me that all the others where not doing as well as they could. I did not remove wire from most which means they will need to be grown on as larger material to hide the scars of wire which will stay inside the tree.
This is the one planted in Akadama last year now being in it's third season since germination. Not bad considering it spent it's first year in a congested seedling tray.

pine.jpg

That being my best one for growth I thought I should also get a pic of one of the others hat have not done as well. Just grabbed this one but now think it may be my second best

pine4.jpg

Gotta leave it there for now as time for the movie to go on More later

[Craig]

Nice work Bretts, whats your plans from here, bigger pots/same or into the ground?

[kcpoole]

Nice Brett
In the ground I hope?
In the nice growing bed you have there

ken

[Bretts]

Ok questions to answer and where was I
Here is another one that has been in a separate pot into it's second season but actually 3 growing seasons old same as above. A little smaller but I guess still going good. Yet I know from the one in the first pic I could have done better. Needles on this one look low and promising though

pine5.jpg

It was a demo at bonsai by he harbour that I was asked to help out at that got me interested in growing JBP from seed. He was very inspirational that what he was doing was nothing new(all laid out in BT#12) it just takes the initiative to start now for the future.
The guy that I helped gave me a seedling that from memory he said was 1 1/2 years old and had gone through the seedling cutting technique. That was about three years ago. Not sure if it was because this seedling was handed around the crowed (with one other) bare rooted showing off the root spread before it was put back into some soil or my learning curve but I think I am a year or so behind on the schedule laid out in BT #12. Also unsure if the top had already been cut back I may have repeated the top chop step which seems to be giving me a twin trunk type form
I had great growth last year but it does not seem happy with the mix I have it in this year turning a light green? I suspect pH issues (don't trust that Mt Sylvia mine diatomite Ken but it may be something else ) Have been some what aggressive with fertiliser but fear overdoing it if it is a pH issue so as long as it does not go yellow I will just try to resolve next season.

pine1.jpg

pine2.jpg

[Bretts]

In the second year I started a new batch of seedlings determined to make seedling cutting of them as the guy in the demo had. I was very successful in making cuttings of this batch of seedlings but again I did not follow to the T and left them in a seedling tray for the remainder of last season.
I put them into separate pots last spring. Almost all survived this and now I have seedling cuttings looking like this.

pine6.jpg

The article states that the vigorous ones will be chopped back just above the older needles after the first year but I think I am about 1 year behind not separating them last season and plan on doing that this Spring. The idea here is that you will get low sacrifice branches that will speed the thickening of the trunk also keeping low more dormant branches for future development.

[Bretts]

The last bit of history to catalogue is what I did with the other 2/3(about 50-60 or so) of the first batch of seedlings.
Last spring(earlier than the year before) after being in congested seedling trays I separated all of them cut the tap root wired, twisted and planted in small seedling peat pots.
This probably took about half a day and I was very happy to get 99% success. They soon grew out of these pots and a few months ago I peeled away most of the peat pot de-weeded and removed the wire(again taking about 1/2 a day). They went into a very course mostly inorganic mix. After A few weeks all of a sudden I lost about 1/7 of them. I believe disturbing the roots mid season and then going into a too big a pot was the reason for this loss as 4 I put into smaller pots got 100% success.

pine7.jpg

Edit: I added the peat pots into this pic
The pot on the right is too big for this size seedling (one on the left was 100% success) But as the majority survived I am looking forward to great growth next season with these. I find it interesting to compare with the seedling in the first pic of the same age to show where I could be with all of them if I knew what I was doing!

[Craig]

hi Bretts, it's very interesting that different size pots can affect success rate, do you think it might be because the smaller pots can keep a higher soil temp than the larger pots?, i wonder if any body else has noticed this.
Looks like your going to end up with some nicely shaped trunks, keep us posted Regards Craig

[Bretts]

Ok back to the questions where to from here. Probably the most interesting thing I have found is that the options will be unlimited. The original idea from the demo I attended and BT#12 is that I have a long road ahead. About 5-8 years of developing the trunk in pots then another 25 years to remove the sacrifice branches and refine into a large/mid size informal upright masterpiece. A total of 33 years would have me one foot into a retirement home.
As Jarrod Say's seedlings for the future
But I believe there are other options for the near future as well.
With the seedling cuttings why not give some of them 3-4 years of trunk fattening and then work on shohin forms. Also the twisted trunks I have removed the wire from could be very interesting shohin in about 8-10 years. Ray Nesci has been showing of some inspiring exposed root JBP. He explained the full procedure at the Tops Weekend. Although he did not twist the trunk as I have so maybe these will look even better. They are about 8 years old and look amazing.
I will mst probably plant the ones out in he ground that have swallowed the wire but that will be at least a couple of years of as the ground growing area is full for at least a couple of years

I wil elaborate on any of the techniques stated if anyone wants me too.

[Bretts]

I am impressed with your question Craig.
I like to express the idea that I even question my doctor. In other words why should I be scared to question experts in bonsai!
There is nothing new about using the right sized pot for the root ball at hand. The idea is that the roots will be able to occupy a certain amount of the pot and create a viable substrate that uses all available water in a short time so the pot does not stay wet. That is how I understand it anyway.
Compare this to a tree in the ground in it's natural habitat it has optimum air/ water content with unlimited space. The holy grail in pot culture is to give as much room as possible without spoiling the natural habitat of the roots.
I except and see the expertise of my peers that the right size pot gives best results in pot culture but I still have this thought in the back that surely a larger pot with a courser substrate will give the room plus the habitat for trees to thrive.
4 smaller pots at 100% success compared to about 30 at 1/7 success is hardly conclusive but it does lean in the favour that the right sized pot irrespective of the coarseness of substrate is the way to go

[kcpoole]

Nice info brett, and food for thought
I also agree on the right size pot idea too
I have had small trees in really big pots and they have either not survived, or done really poorly.

It would be really great if you can doco the process from start to where you are now.
Create a new thread dedicated to process so we can all learn and benefit from you experiences

Ken

[Scott Roxburgh]

Good work Brett, nice to see someone putting in the hours at the outset to get the roots right rather than relying on an air layer in later life
I couldn't help myself!

Really great work mate, you'll produce some great trees in a few years.

[Bretts]

Ill see what I can do Ken. There is a good thread on the seedling cutting over at Bonsai study group.
That is a better explanation than I could do so we will start with that.
http://bonsaistudygroup.com/japanese-bl ... from-seed/

Ah touche Scott because with Ray's idea bad roots are part of the magic I can't get to my old pics at the moment but I knew KC had some pics of Rays exposed root JBP's and here is a link.
http://www.poolez.com/gallery2/main.php ... &g2_page=4
Down the bottom of the page. Although I don't like looking at those pics too much as I have to look at the dwarf Scott's pine Peter is looking at that I killed almost two years ago
Ray took these JBP along to the Tops weekend last year to explain how he did them and they are looking fantastic. The trunk/roots have thickened a fair bit I reckon.
At least one has a more twisted trunk than I remember