Japanese Black Pine Seeds

[deepeetee]

Hi all,

I understand there are quarantine laws in place to prevent the importation of JBP seeds into Australia.

I have had a fumble around on the internet for a local supplier, but to no avail.

Can anyone point me in the direction of where i might be able to buy some JBP seeds?

Thanks Dave

[Scott Roxburgh]

If you find a supplier let us all know, your best bet is to find a tree.

Apparently, JBP seed is pretty scarce this year due to the wet weather and wind pollination being very low???

[BirchMan]

This is a wide open question that i'm sure will aid the OP; how do we ID a JBP tree? Are they commonly used as park trees in Australia? Lastly would anyone know of one in Perth on public land?

I've been staring sideways at a number of landscape type pines lately and some are shaped a fair bit like the full-sized JBP i've seen in books, but I am not sure. I'm pretty keen to learn to ID pines in general, anyone got any good books or sites?

bit of a packed question but I'm not sure where to start

[shibui]

There are hundreds of species of pine and many are very hard to tell apart.
JBP is a 2 needle pine so look at the needle bundles first.
Bark is another indicator.
JBP cones are SMALL. About 5-7 cm long by 2 cm wide when closed but open up to round balls about 5-7 cm diameter.
After that I cannot help. Alpine Art has spent lots of time iding pines so may know more.

There was a pine here at Yackandandah that had all the right characteristics but was recently removed.

I don't think I have any seed left as it was getting a bit old and I sowed quite a lot the year before last and my new tree has not yet set viable seed but I'll check my containers and let you know. Plenty of seedlings available though.

[kcpoole]

as shibui mentioned, the first identifying thing is the 2 needles for every shoot. Most others we have here I think are more. JWP, JRP, Mugho and Radiata are all more than 2 needles.

Ken
Edit
on finding this then maybe not quite correct http://www.brassett.org.uk/trees/idpine.html

[Dumper]

there is a quarantine law for importing any seeds or plants

depends on where u get it from. some might be impossible. some might be fine

first you will need to check australian database
http://www.aqis.gov.au/icon32/asp/ex_querycontent.asp

usually. australia has a good terms with UK. so seeds from UK will be easier to get it.

I've bought some jbp seeds from uk (ebay) and they all came thru.
On uk side. they will do some fotosanitary form (i dont know if i got the form name right but something like that) to claim that the seeds is good and no pest or nasties.
Seeds u dont need a permit to order. just as long as u pass those requirement.

for plants. u will need import permits. yada yada yada yada never ends.

[BirchMan]

thanks Shibui and Ken for the tips. I'll go in and inspect the needles of any that are candidates.

[shibui]

Forgot to say tht JBP also has white candles - different to red pines. Not sure whether there are other 2 needle pines with white candles though.

There are also other pines called black pine (maybe from North America?) which were planted for forestry for some time. I think the candles of these are dark (brown/red?)
Note that 2 needles is not enough by itself. There's quite a lot of 2 needle pine species in Australia.

Years ago I asked about importing JBP seed and the Quarantine office told me the same as Dumper. Can be imported with appropriate phytosanitary declaration - (statement that theres no bugs or diseases included.) You will need to check whether this is still ok.

[deepeetee]

Thanks Shibui, Dumper and Ken.
Sounds like the Uk might be the easiest way.
Ill check it out with Quarantine on Monday, and let you know what they have to say.

Again thanks for the tips

[alpineart]

Hi Deepeetee , there is approximately 220 species of 2 needle pines ,and as Shibui said literally hundreds of others , 27 species of which were grown in the North East Victoria region .Most of them are 2 neddle pines ,over the last 20 years i have located probably 20 of them , some of which i haven't identified .They vary in needle length from 50mm up to 180mm and comes from 30mm in diameter 50mm long to 120mm in diameter to 220mm long .Some species are Pinus Nigra x 3 , Austriaca , nigra and maratima the needles vary from 50-60mm long on the Nigra , 60-90mm long on the Austriaca and anywhere between 60-150mm on the Maratima All these are European Black pines {Pinus Nigra's} and all have silver or white shoots , quite often sold in nurseries as JBP. .

Then there are the European red pines ,{Resinosa} 2 needles red shot . European White pines are a 5 needle pines {Eastern and Western}{Monticola and Strobus} have very similar growth however the cones are much longer on 1 of the species and both are conical in shaped cones more like a Douglas fir /False Canadian Hemlock .More pines to consider are Poderosa {Western yellow}2 needles they vary from 90mm to 160mm .The big cone pine is growing Near Yackandanda .

Plantation pines {Monterey} some call them {Radiata} can and do have 2-3-4 and 5 needles on the one branch . A Lodgepole pine is also grown up here and numerous others . Cones and bark don't really give a positive I.D from personal experience , you need cones , bark , needles and shoots and then growth area and ground composition can and does change the needle growth shape and length . . If you can post a pic it will help send you in the right direction not up sheet creek like google does.

Hope this helps Cheers Alpineart .

[Woody11]

As Alpineart has rightly pointed out, pine identification can be tricky. Furthermore, there may be hybrids lurking around.

For example, many queensland growers (including some who post regularly on Ausbonsai) are convinced their pine trees collected from plantations locally are radiata pines. Unfortunately radiata plantations only constitute 3% of plantation stock in Queensland. Some 33% are in fact hybrids of carribean pine and slash pine.(interestingly another 40% are carribean pine which could explain why some people state their radiata don't look the same as others and the dispute on radiata characteristics discussed on another post not long ago).

Considering that pines are wind pollinated and natural hybridization in closely related pines is not unknown, identification of that pine tree down the road may indeed be trickier than simply counting needles and looking at candles.

[deepeetee]

Oh man!!!
First thing Monday morning and my head is already a mush. Seems like this pine business is complicated.
I really do appreciate the replied messages Alpine and Woody, ill be bookmarking this thread.

So in your opinion. There is little point in trying to get JBP seeds in from another country, i should simply just try one of the many other varieties that are available in Australia?

Im also gathering from your replies that trying to establish exactly what type of pine i end up with is somewhat complicated.

Dave

[shibui]

On importing seed: Just check with AQIS about current requirements. If Dumper has bought see from UK with the necessary phytosanitary forms supplied others should be able to as well. Necessary documents should be available from good, reliable seed companies. Seed companies from other countries that export seed should also be able to supply the documents needed so just ask the questions of them before ordering. Please do not try to sneak plants or seed into Aust. We already have more than enough pests and diseases to deal with without bringing in more on untreated seed.

re identifying pines: Yes it will be difficult to really be sure of the identity of a wild pine but if it makes a good bonsai does it matter what species it is?

[deepeetee]

I wont be doing anything like sneaking in seeds or plants. Not my go.

I appreciate your help Shibui.

I will check with AQIS later today. But for now i have to head home and change out of these wet clothes
Unfortunately for me i have just accidentally fallen into a pool whilst measuring up for a swimming pool cover.
The client has not stopped laughing

[Woody11]

Hiya Deepeetee

Any further update on the AQIS front?