Japanese red pine issue?

ness · Post by **ness** » April 13th, 2013, 1:43 pm

Hello again guys, a question I have that is concerning me right now. My Japanese red pine that is in a growing pot/stage is beginning to have some needles yellow and drop. I'm not too worried, but all I'm wondering is,
"is this normal and is there a way to prevent so many dropping?"
I have done no work to the tree in two years, and have just been letting it thicken up. Any tips guys?

phantom · Post by **phantom** » April 13th, 2013, 2:22 pm

With out seeing a photo,and no work done on the tree for 2 years i would say it is the old needles dieing.You should be removeing the old needles every year.

ness · Post by **ness** » April 13th, 2013, 3:00 pm

my photoshop crashed, it's best i could do with what i got. Thanks

Isitangus · Post by **Isitangus** » April 13th, 2013, 5:25 pm

Can't help with advice but looks like a nice pine!!!

ness · Post by **ness** » April 13th, 2013, 6:08 pm

Thanks isitangus! She's currently 140cm from pot base to tip.
I'll be looking to do some heavy pruning once the weather is right (whenever that is).
From past experience with this tree, it does this needle drop as the weather in Melbourne begins to cool.
Just wondering what the process and logic behind the transition is.

Post by **kcpoole** » April 13th, 2013, 6:17 pm

I do not have a Red pine, but to me it just looks like the old needles dying off.
Note the new ones on the outer foliage looks fine, just these ones on the interior.

I would be concerned with the foliage only on the ends of the branches tho, If you let all the inner foliage weken, you will be left with littl pompoms on the end of long sticks and that will be the end of the tree.

Ken

Brian · Post by **Brian** » April 13th, 2013, 6:43 pm

yes, I agree with the above comment. Just pull the yellow/ dead needles off the branches . Keep an eye on the new growth needles at the ends of the branches, as this is an indication of the trees health.

ness · Post by **ness** » April 13th, 2013, 7:51 pm

Yes, it is the intermediate growth that seems to be dropping off. I assume it's redirecting nutrients back to the roots in preparation for winter?
I understand the pom-pom theory, but i've cut branches back before and they seem to bud back quite nicely.
Any recomendations as to when and how I can give the tree a nice once over?
I was planning on reducing the density overall (mostly the top and branch ends to promote lower growth) for next season.
I will post photo series soon (once my photoshop is back up and running) with hope to gain some advice on styles and techniques to improve the overall look of the tree

shibui · Post by **shibui** » April 13th, 2013, 9:17 pm

Because leaves have a limited useful lifespan all plants need to renew their leaves. we know that deciduous ones do this every year but how do evergreens do it?
pine needles seem to have a 2-3 year life. After that the tree turns off life support to the oldest ones and they turn yellow and drop. The tree can then use its resources on the more productive younger leaves.
In other words this is a natural cycle and usually occurs in autumn on trees that have not been pruned and have not had old needles removed.
The second pic shows new needles at the tip of a branch dying which is more of a worry but it is the lowest branch and I suspect has not had enough light so the tree has again diverted support from unproductive (shaded) lower needles to the more productive newer growth at the top. To keep lower branches alive we need to reduce the vigour of strong upper branches and make sure the lower branches get plenty of light so the tree feels that the lower ones could be useful and keeps them alive and strong.

ness · Post by **ness** » April 13th, 2013, 9:34 pm

shibui, you are spot on about that yellowing branch! (second photo)
I have limited space, and i didn't notice a grapevine shoot that grabbed and shaded most of that branch

Thats probably the branch that had me worried the most (It's a strange branch that grew from the trunk about 4 years ago).
I hope the green shoots on the tip mean there's some hope!
Your in depth explanation was exactly what i was looking for, But if i may as one more favour...
When and how should i start to reduce the overall size and structure?
I attach a crudely drawn outline of the branch and trunk structure.
I hope someone can help... Again

Edit* i missed the suspect branch in the structure, but you can clearly see where it is i hope.

Tony Bebb · Post by **Tony Bebb** » April 13th, 2013, 10:06 pm

Hi Ness

This tree is simply overgrown and Shibui has described it well. Pine needles will live for 3 years and they will only shoot back well in needle areas, so if you lose the needles you lose the potential for new buds.

Trees want to grow big and will always sacrifice inner and lower foliage to support the growing tips, especially at the top of the tree, which will enable the tree to grow tall. On top of this, all trees wether deciduous or evergreen, will shed inner foliage at least in autumn to conserve energy and store it for the tips to grow in spring. Trees store starches in the cabium layer more in autumn, like a bear stores food in its stomach for the winter, and that is why trunks and branches will thicken quickly in autumn and wire cuts in so quick.

I would prune some of it now here in Brisbane, but in Vic you may be best to wait till spring. You will need to prune the long leggy growth back to more compact buds as close to the trunk and base as possible. Feed it well in spring and the new buds will develop so you can keep branching low and develop a nice tree from the trunk you have grown..

Tony

shibui · Post by **shibui** » April 13th, 2013, 10:24 pm

With pines it is important that you regularly reduce shoots. This should have been done each year but too late now. Pines are reluctant to bud on bare wood so when the old needles have dropped you just end up with bare branches with pompoms of needles at the ends.
I hope yours is still young enough to produce some buds on the bare parts of the branches.

I agree with Tony that in Vic it would be best to wait until late winter then cut all shoots back hard leaving just 4 or 5 pairs of needles on each shoot (maybe less in strong upper areas) to try to force new shoots closer to the trunk. Don't worry about a design for now, just get shoots and design the tree according to what you get. Allow weak shoots to grow freely for a year or 2 but strong ones will need to be pinched and have excess buds removed to encourage weaker inner buds to grow.

I think you are lucky that the low branch with brown needles is unlikely to be part of any design - get rid of it. The one on the opposite side could be used as a very low branch, a 2nd trunk or to create a low windswept or cascade tree (remove the rest of the tree for this option) so keep it for now until we see how it buds after pruning.

You should reduce the number of branches where more than 1 grows close together (just above the 1st curve?) Having several branches close to the same level will thicken the trunk in that area giving reverse taper

You could do that now so the tree can put more effort into producing buds on the branches you keep when you cut it back in spring.

ness · Post by **ness** » April 14th, 2013, 2:20 am

like this?..

ness · Post by **ness** » April 15th, 2013, 2:12 pm

I decided to give her a little trim, just so as not to shadow the inner branching over winter so much.
Yellow needles were easily removed,
Not much sap leakage at all. Wounds were dressed with sealant putty.
I didn't want to go overboard with the cutback this late in the season.
BTW, Yellowing of needles has stopped.

AusBonsai