My opinon on why bonsai is in trouble and how to fix it.

[63pmp]

Chill people. This isn't about who has the best bonsai. Its about free market economics and getting trees to circulate. Art is not valued by the time put into it, but by the value a purchaser puts on it. Obviously nurseries have overhesds, and it adds to cost. But if you can't sell trees then they are overpriced. Having a place where everyone, including nurseries, people can buy and sell and true values of trees defined and trees can circulate amongst practitioners of all levels.

Maybe its a utopian dream. Thanks for comments.

I think for bonsai to improve people have to practice. People can't do that with the current system.

Paul

[shibui]

Maybe Shibui or Bodhi can comment on what dollar value per year is reasonable and sustainable.

I have not commented so far because it is far more complex than simple $ per year per tree Ken. A tree in the ground takes little time. Maybe 10 - 20 minutes per year?? depending on infrastructure (auto or manual watering, how often you prune, etc). There is cots in the infrastructure and other inputs - fertiliser, cost of supplying and applying water, weeding, etc but probably still not significant when shared between lots of trees. Cost of the land will vary depending on location and what the area will yield. If I grazed sheep or grew veges or fruit on my patch what would it yield in $ terms? If my council find out I am running a business my rates immediately increase from residential to business and I need to recoup that cost as well.
Something most do not appreciate is that not all trees make it. we have deaths along the way and I do have to destroy some that I think have not developed into something suitable for bonsai. Probably still not a significant cost though.

I feel that most of my cost is after the trees are dug. Pots, potting mix, water, fert and it is then when my time starts to add up. The longer the tree is in the nursery the more it costs me. Even a quick prune of an undeveloped tree will take 10 minutes minimum and you will all know that as the trees develop it takes far longer to prune properly. That is one of the reasons I concentrate on prebonsai rather than finished bonsai.

I could not maintain an income from bonsai here in Australia. My business is a sideline - only part of my income stream ( which will explain why i don't always answer the phone or rely to emails immediately ). I don't need to dwell on the subject or bother to analyse it or work out theoretical solutions - that's just how it is. I just find my spot and fit in and I'm happy with that.

[Daluke]

Bonsai hasn't hit the masses yet. Exposé more people to the art and people will get interested. Nurseries and clubs should think about;

- Setting up stalls at shopping centers, markets, fetes, university open days etc;
- Running advertisements on television and radio;
- Giving rewards to people whom refer others to their business organization;

Nursery owners should think about what their business strategy is. Have a read of Porter's generic business strategies (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_g ... strategies ). Maybe nurseries should only stock expensive trees and try and create a market of exclusivity and prestige for those that own them. Or maybe they should sell only budget trees.

I'm a newcomer to the hobby and am surprised there aren't more people into this great past time!

[Brian]

sorry, I don't agree with you. Bonsai was at its peak 20 years ago and has fizzled out to a smaller group of enthusiasts these-days.

Its like antique furniture collecting, just lost its appeal to people.

[Daluke]

I didn't know that.

And if it happened once than surely it can happen again.

[Graeme]

Have to agree with you there Brian. Bonsai is now the domain of the sick and lonely I'm afraid. Which one are you dear reader? I guess if you can't decide it's OK, because I fear I am both sick and lonely.

Fraid it wont Daluke, noone wants to have to wait 5 minutes for a result anymore, let alone 20 years. We really have become the 'Now' generation.

[Phoenix238]

Well, maybe it's a bit like my workplace and I'm just doing my bit to bring the average age down unfortunately that gets harder every year

People do tend to give me funny looks when I say I'm into bonsai :-/

[Rory]

Bonsai is not in trouble---------- when all is said and done,my hobby is about me creating something that pleases me. We should ask ourselves "If all bonsai nurseries shut down and there were no nurseries in oz ,would I still do bonsai ?
for me it is about me and the 'tree',not me and the 'business'-------so,no more bonsai nurseries? ----we can still make something from nothing. My ego trip is no-ones' but mine.
The bonsai industry will either develop, or not. Either way I will have a collection(worthless, or priceless)that both frustrates and pleases me. But ,of course, that could be the merlot talking

haha, good perspective there. I agree that if the bonsai nurseries all closed up for some reason I'd still love the art, but it is always nice to have the nurseries there, which in turn generally encourages more people to take up the hobby and thus make it more fun for the rest of us.

[63pmp]

I remember when you could buy bonsai from David Jones in Market St. An exibition would make page five in the Herald and JAL had an annual exhibition. There was a lot of interest in the early eighties.

People had a higher disposable income back then. Not now, now you need double income to pay the mortgage. That makes the luxury of bonsai unattractive.

I,ve thought about exhibitions and competitions. You need a big carrot to get very good trees off benches and into a hall, maybe a prize of $5000. But it wont make the hobby any more affordable. And wont improve qaulity of stock plants. Only developing some way that people can trade trees will there be improvement. We have to get away from being tree hoarders and become more involved in trading them. Getting affordable trees, work them for a few yesrs, then trade them on when they've become stale, at an affordable price.

I know I have trees I would happily move on but there is no easy, reliable method that suites.

Paul

[SouthernSky]

I've been following this thread with interest, and I figure it's time to dip my proverbial toe in the water. I'm currently setting up to open a new Sydney nursery - and so I've been giving a lot of thought to this question. I have two main thoughts on this issue - a philosophical answer and a practical answer, and would like to hear all of your thoughts on them.

My philosophical answer why bonsai is in trouble is that the bonsai community is old, staid and too tied to a Japanese tradition that isn't even theirs.

I've been doing bonsai since I was around 12 years old, I gave my first professional talk on the topic at 17, and I retreated from the bonsai community completely at 22 because certain respected senior leaders of the bonsai community took it upon themselves to undermine my efforts. I'm almost 30 now, and I'm finding that not much has changed - I'm still (at least) 20 years younger than anybody else in bonsai, the community is still hostile to non-Japanese approaches to bonsai/penjing, and it's still incredibly difficult for interested people to become enthusiasts (much less actively participating in the bonsai community).

My practical answer why bonsai is in trouble is because it's impossible to find a good starter bonsai.

The cheapest bonsai available on the market are the same prices as they were ten years ago - and the quality has dropped significantly to meet the pricing demands. Bonsai at Bunnings and Masters are incredibly low quality, and at florists and garden centres they're no better (almost all coming out of Bonsai Environment, Ray Nesci or Paradisia). The major nurseries themselves have rubbish starter trees, and I cannot find anywhere selling a good quality first time bonsai. My new nursery will be focused on this market - I'm creating healthy and stylish trees that will hopefully be the first of many bonsai a new bonsai lover will enjoy - and by pairing it with amazing after sale support and education I hope to create new bonsai hobbyists that will enjoy the craft for decades to come.

As one of the few young people in this community, I feel a responsibility to do my part to cultivate younger followers. I'd like to know your thoughts on what you, the AusBonsai community, expect of people like me, and what you'd like to see us do. And if there are any other younger enthusiasts here, I'd love to hear from you too!

[Andrew Legg]

I'm gonna stick a spanner n the works. Does it matter if it declines? Why do we always want to grow everything?

[63pmp]

As one of the few young people in this community, I feel a responsibility to do my part to cultivate younger followers. I'd like to know your thoughts on what you, the AusBonsai community, expect of people like me, and what you'd like to see us do. And if there are any other younger enthusiasts here, I'd love to hear from you too!.

Well thats great and I wish you luck, but would have been bettrr if you start another thread rather than hijack this one.

Paul

[rookie93]

For me a big part of the problem is when you walk into a bonsai nursery & can buy a stock tree for $8, go back a week later & the exact same tree is now in an $8 pot with no training or even pruning but the price jumps to $49.

[kcpoole]

For me a big part of the problem is when you walk into a bonsai nursery & can buy a stock tree for $8, go back a week later & the exact same tree is now in an $8 pot with no training or even pruning but the price jumps to $49.

How much time does it take to create that $49 tree?
Materials = 8 + 8 + 4 ( Wire, Mesh, fertiliser, etc) = $20, Leaves about $29 for labour. is that a decent return?

Ken

[63pmp]

maybe if their making car parts. Not if your making art.

This is my point. And I really feel like I'm talking to myself, there is no increjsse in value in these trees.

Is this viable product?

How many of these trees are out there? Howmany trees in pots are just sitting on benches. Why is there no interest in makeover bonsai? Surely even nurseries could profit from mskeover trees purchaded from an suction?

Paul