The pitfalls of general nursery stock

[dansai]

I decided to repot some of my Natives today that I acquired from general nurseries as they tend to dry out very quickly and I assumed it was from being pot bound. Well they were very potbound to the point of virtually total root mass and no potting mix. Unfortunately by the time I found the base of the trunk and removed the circling/crossing/tangled roots there was not much left but a few mis-happen short roots. They appeared to be all cutting grown and deeply planted with no thought towards good root development. Out of 7 plants repotted only one (a Banksia serrata) had decent roots suitable for bonsai. I would actually be surprised if even half survive the ordeal.

So what to do?

The few that were from larger pots and had some decent trunk girth to them, I have set ground layers on with the hope that I can cut off the crappy roots later. Problem is I don't know if they will survive until then. In future I am thinking I will plant them in the ground and let them grow for a few years, develop some of the branches and layer them off. If the main trunk is good I will then ground layer the trunk.

Any one else have ideas on what to do? Or have success with other methods?

[Daluke]

I found putting nursery stock in bigger pots or the ground helps. I've also been pumping them with Seasol. I wish I'd have spent more money on stock from Bonsai nurseries rather than general garden centres.

[Josh]

You will find plants taken as cuttings generally have long stems to begin with so when they put them up they pot them deep to hide the long straight section. This is always the downfall of buying nursery stock. I always try to repot all bought stock into my own mix as soon as I can so I can sort out the roots. I have had several pots I have had to cut pot off with an angle grinder they were so pot bound. These can take a lot of work to make usable. I general pot them into a larger pot to encourage new roots and health then reduce/prune to were I want. Sometimes you can be lucky, but sometimes your'e not.

Do you have photos of them as it would be easier to advise best road to take with photos.

Josh.

[Elmar]

Sorry for your experience, but I'm glad I'm not the only one that that has happened to! Makes me feel less foolish ...

I bought a native where the roots came out and then UP before they curled back down ... I didn't have the foresight to plant them into a bigger pot ... probably would have saved this one!

Guess I'm lucky in that sense, we don't have much on nurseries in Hedland so I can't get caught in a hurry ahhhh how sad is that...

I think, tho, another point that contributed to its demise is the hot winds we get here -wish I had protected it better from ... so another thing learned right here!

[dansai]

I didn't bother josh. I was thinking of it but they were some of the worst I have see. Roots actually went upwards on most of them. They are basically just cuttings again with a few roots that would need to be totally replaced. I wasn't so much looking for advice on these ones but if anyone had success with other methods.

[dansai]

Hi elmar. It's not the first time I've had trouble but these were the worst. Unfortunately the problem that forced me to act was they were not absorbing water due to the root bound nature of the pots.

[Elmar]

Hi elmar. It's not the first time I've had trouble but these were the worst. Unfortunately the problem that forced me to act was they were not absorbing water due to the root bound nature of the pots.

Fair enough... I must admit that those trees I have (managed NOT to kill) repotted into Bonsai mix are doing well and the water just drains thru like a dream!

I have gone now to taking my own cuttings ... kinda eliminates this issue... and the issue of not having access to nurseries ...

[Elmar]

Hah! Just went to look up more propagating vids and fund heaps, but this guy pushes the seedlings in halfway - The Shed Online on Youtube...

[Ray M]

Hi dansai,
My method may be a little too late now that you have removed so many roots, but the following is what I do. When I buy, or are given, a tree in a normal black pot it is immediately transfered to a colander. I don't touch the roots, I do a slip pot into the colander. I normally choose a colander of a diameter larger than the black pot. This allows you to pack new bonsai mix down around the root mass. After the tree has recovered and there is good growth, I check to see what the root system looks like. If it is mess, and I don't think it is worth the trouble to try and fix it, I apply a ground layer to develop a new set of roots.

Regards Ray

[shibui]

I reckon a solution will depend on the species Dan.
Some produce new roots quite easily - just plant them a bit deeper in a larger pot and wait until you have better roots then cut off the old ones - very much like layering but less work but may also be a bit hit and miss. Proper ground layering or air layering will also solve the problem but takes time and a little bit of skill.

Where roots are all tangled it is possible to leave them as is and grow it on in larger pots or in the ground. As the trunk and roots grow thicker the roots merge together leaving a large mass at the base of the trunk with feeder roots coming out of it. I think Grant Bowie posted a pine where the roots had fused into a large base on the trunk? Quite a few natives should do the same. Might be a bit more difficult with the ones where roots have grown upwards though.

Far easier to find a nursery where they pot on properly so these problems don't occur in the first place or start with smaller tubes where the roots are still flexible enough to unwind and arrange properly.
Or better still, grow your own plants so there is only 1 person to take the blame for the mess you end up with.

[dansai]

Far easier to find a nursery where they pot on properly

They have been from a few different retailers so no idea where they were propagated or potted on.

Some of what I did today where the cheap plants in the "carpark sale" area. They came from a wholesale/retail nursery that does do there own propagation as well as grow on from smaller stock. These were better but still planted very deep and over root bound. But as I said they were in the sale section.

However the worst were those from a small retail nursery planted in 6" and 8" pots. These were the tangled, upward growing roots. You could see the shape of the original propagation plug still there.

or start with smaller tubes where the roots are still flexible enough to unwind and arrange properly.

Good idea and I have done this in the past.

Or better still, grow your own plants so there is only 1 person to take the blame for the mess you end up with

I do. Probably far too many.

Hopefully I haven't killed them as there was a mini Melaleuca quinquenervia, a callistemon with tight small leaves and a lovely Leptospermum with great bronze foliage with an interesting trunk. The plan was to grow these and take cuttings and layers which is why I thought maybe best just to plant them as they come without bothering to tidy the roots and take the cuttings and layers and ground layer them once they have developed good trunks. I did take cuttings both large and small though.

[Rory]

From my experience, slip potting is usually a doomed venture. What can happen is that the new mix is well drained, and initially only a few roots will start to venture out enough to gain any beneficial nutrients and water, but you still have essentially the same problem compacted in the original ball.

Now the water simply flows off the compacted root ball and into the new mix, where there are no new roots yet. Previously a small amount of water would still collect down the sides of the previous pot bound pot providing at least some water to the roots. This means the new watering will barely get any water to the compact root ball as it will just naturally now flow off to the new mix. If your stock is one which grows roots faster than others it will improve te chance of success, but once slip potted, you need to water and water and water and re water when it is watering time. You still only water when it starts to dry, but when it is watering time you will need to keep watering for many minutes to ensure the original ball is getting water, which can prove very very difficult an usually can mean the stock will die before you get to repot properly.

From my experience slip potting is too dangerous. I do the full repot and spread out the roots and get mix in between the roots, obviously depending on the species... and then take my chances this way. This is just my experience but I get better results this way than slip potting. The other problem with slip potting is that the new mix stays wet longer and fools you into thinking the stock doesn't need watering yet because there are too few roots taking up the moisture and the vital roots still feeding the tree aren't using the new mix and this it stays wet longer, while it remains going bone dry in the compact ball.

I know it is easy to say, but after a while you can usually tell if that stock you are going to buy is potentially going to be badly root pruned ... To a certain point... I have given up on anything that generally shows signs of this. Even though bonsai nurseries still sell pot bound stock "unknowingly", it is just so much easier to grow younger stock that you can get your fingers deep into and tell it is not pot bound. But if you see that golden tree, and it is pot bound I vote on a proper repot.

[trident76]

3 words.
Grow your own.

Starting your own stock from seeds or cuttings is far more satisfying.
Failing this look for younger stock not yet pot bound

[Elmar]

3 words.
Grow your own.

Starting your own stock from seeds or cuttings is far more satisfying.
Failing this look for younger stock not yet pot bound

Definitely working on it!


Cheers
Elmar

[Andrew Legg]

Have a scratch about in the nursery pot before you buy. See where the roots are and whether there is hope. Thisis what I do.