Effects of HARD WATER on the soil

[Phoenix238]

.. but its soooo ugly

I'm sure the word you were looking for was "industrial"

[EdwardH]

Another option if you have hard water i.e. alkaline with PH over 7.0, in your area is to grow alkaline tolerant species.
Trees such as Tilia species, sycamore, Acer griseum (maple), Zelkova, Hawthorn, Celtis, pinus nigra (Austrian pine) and many acacia species are all tolerant of alkaline soils. There are a large number of trees to select from so before spending large amounts of cash on changing your environment why not try trees that will grow well in your local conditions?. Actually this is no different to Melbournians struggling with figs and Brisbanites struggling to grow pines.

[shibui]

Hedland reticulated water test results show:
pH: 7.94 which is quite ok for water.
TDS (total dissolved solids): 619 where 0-600 is classed as good, 600-900 'fair'. TDS is mostly natural salts and can consist of any or all of- sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, chloride, sulphate, bicarbonate, carbonate, silica, fluoride, iron, manganese, nitrate, phosphate. Many of those you will recognise from the label of fertiliser bottles.
Hardness: 218 where 60-200 is rated good, 200-500 will produce some scale, above 500 leads to high scale deposition.
As a comparison water, in the Perth area has pH: 7.5-8.2; TDS: 200-500; Hardness: 55-200

My water expert was not much help, not knowing anything at all about plants Town water is only treated to ensure compliance with minimum human health standards ie disinfect with chlorine or in extreme cases remove toxic minerals so you have to put up with the mineralised bore water for now unless you want to invest in some of the rainwater storage ideas you have already mentioned.

It would be interesting to try some chemistry with your water - add a few drops of vinegar or other acid to it and see whether any of the minerals precipitate and how much that affects the pH of the water. Though I have not tried it (because we usually have the opposite problem with acid water) maybe a water with diluted vinegar every few weeks or months might help with susceptible species. Certainly only try it on a few dispensible plants first and maybe get a pH test kit to keep an eye on how the pH of your mix changes over time. Remember that fertiliser usually makes potting mix more acid so there may be some balance between the fertiliser lowering pH and water raising it

[treeman]

There is no problem. I used water with a pH of 9 to 10 for many years. On Azalea as well...If you use acidifying ferts (urea and ammonium heavy), you will strike a balance very easily. The only thing to watch is for any signs of Mg deficiency. This will mean your water is low in Magnesium Carbonate and contains mainly Calcium Carbonate. It is unlikely though.
With the high pH, I had bad Cal carbonate deposits in on my greenhouse plants but the outdoor stuff was fine.
Now that I have moved, my water is almost too pure and I need to supplement Ca and Mg.

[Pup]

sooooo ... ICBs - I can get some relatively clean ones that used to contain AdBlu which, on the surface at least, seems to have added bonus of a little bit if fertiliser SHOULD the container not be fully rinsed out!

.. but its soooo ugly

Is that your wife's comment also mate

[Guy]

I would have thought that as long as you get a good flow out of the drain holes at every watering ,the salts would tend to not increase in concentration

[Elmar]

Hedland reticulated water test results show:
pH: 7.94 which is quite ok for water.
TDS (total dissolved solids): 619 where 0-600 is classed as good, 600-900 'fair'. TDS is mostly natural salts and can consist of any or all of- sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, chloride, sulphate, bicarbonate, carbonate, silica, fluoride, iron, manganese, nitrate, phosphate. Many of those you will recognise from the label of fertiliser bottles.
Hardness: 218 where 60-200 is rated good, 200-500 will produce some scale, above 500 leads to high scale deposition.
As a comparison water, in the Perth area has pH: 7.5-8.2; TDS: 200-500; Hardness: 55-200

Man, where did you get those results? I haven't found anything close to this detail! I have found that the ToPH has recently upgraded a filtration system and that has improved our water quality (apparently) but nothing quantifiable like you have... I can not dispute these figures as I have not done any testing of the water itself. What I can tell you is that ALL taps in my house, ALL reticulation drippers throughout the garden and ALL house nozzles as well as anything we wash outside has a white build up (streaks on windows/ cars/ trucks). I have also (now) noticed it on the drainage holes of all my pots. So Mg or Ca carbonate, not sure but theres something! We use vinegar in our washing machine and have doubled its life span already! So something is going on and I'm just trying to eliminate all potential problems.

My water expert was not much help, not knowing anything at all about plants Town water is only treated to ensure compliance with minimum human health standards ie disinfect with chlorine or in extreme cases remove toxic minerals so you have to put up with the mineralised bore water for now unless you want to invest in some of the rainwater storage ideas you have already mentioned.

Lol, comforting thought!

It would be interesting to try some chemistry with your water - add a few drops of vinegar or other acid to it and see whether any of the minerals precipitate and how much that affects the pH of the water. Though I have not tried it (because we usually have the opposite problem with acid water) maybe a water with diluted vinegar every few weeks or months might help with susceptible species. Certainly only try it on a few dispensible plants first and maybe get a pH test kit to keep an eye on how the pH of your mix changes over time. Remember that fertiliser usually makes potting mix more acid so there may be some balance between the fertiliser lowering pH and water raising it

I want to go to the local pool store and see what they can assist with test wise any way. Perhaps they have one of those electronic wands to analysis the water if not then hopefully they'll have a pH test kit which will allow me to check at least that...

Is that your wife's comment also mate

You gonna get me into trouble Sir!

Another option if you have hard water i.e. alkaline with PH over 7.0, in your area is to grow alkaline tolerant species.
Trees such as Tilia species, sycamore, Acer griseum (maple), Zelkova, Hawthorn, Celtis, pinus nigra (Austrian pine) and many acacia species are all tolerant of alkaline soils. There are a large number of trees to select from so before spending large amounts of cash on changing your environment why not try trees that will grow well in your local conditions?. Actually this is no different to Melbournians struggling with figs and Brisbanites struggling to grow pines.

Good suggestion Edward, this will be my fall-back position! There are a number of trees I now have that I am very very fond of and I am not ready to give up on them just yet!

There is no problem. I used water with a pH of 9 to 10 for many years. On Azalea as well...If you use acidifying ferts (urea and ammonium heavy), you will strike a balance very easily. The only thing to watch is for any signs of Mg deficiency. This will mean your water is low in Magnesium Carbonate and contains mainly Calcium Carbonate. It is unlikely though.
With the high pH, I had bad Cal carbonate deposits in on my greenhouse plants but the outdoor stuff was fine.
Now that I have moved, my water is almost too pure and I need to supplement Ca and Mg

Thanx Treeman, not sure if my skill level is sufficient for this as yet, but this exercise is certainly one way to lift it and maybe thats what I will have to do, in conjunction or as part of the above storage solution.

I would have thought that as long as you get a good flow out of the drain holes at every watering ,the salts would tend to not increase in concentration

I was with you, Guy, until I spoke with this new Horticulturalist (and read the B4me thread quoted earlier)! Not all the water drains out of the bottom, some is retained and used by the trees and some evaporates. In the case of the last 2 ways the water leaves the pot, the minerals Calcium/Magnesium Carbonate is left behind. Once left behind it tends to build up and choke the roots or encourage algae or both. The algae subsequently causes bacterial infections which tend to be detrimental to the trees.

What I'm trying to find out is:
1) is this what is happening at my house/garden/ Bonsai attempts?;
2) what are my options of overcoming this?;
3) how can I be sure I'm doing the right thing and not just causing more pain for my trees?

So far, its been a fantastic learning experience and I am looking forward to potentially solving this part of my Bonsai journey! Thank you all for your valuable input.

[fredman]

G,day Elmar get a couple of large drums ie 44 gallon fill them let it stand then use the water around 24 hours should be enough.

What happens to the added chemicals if the water is left to stand, is what I always think about?
The lime being the cause of the hardness surely cant evaporate or does it? Does the carbonates and bicarbonates decrease? What about the chlorine? Will that decrease/evaporate? I can smell and taste it in my tap water when I drink out of the hose

[Elmar]

G,day Elmar get a couple of large drums ie 44 gallon fill them let it stand then use the water around 24 hours should be enough.

What happens to the added chemicals if the water is left to stand, is what I always think about?
The lime being the cause of the hardness surely cant evaporate or does it? Does the carbonates and bicarbonates decrease? What about the chlorine? Will that decrease/evaporate? I can smell and taste it in my tap water when I drink out of the hose

G'day Fredman,
The idea behind allowing it to sit is that the carbonates will settle out given enough time. They are in suspension (meaning like powder floating in the water - it's just too small to see) and eventually it will sink to the bottom while the water remains undisturbed... being heavier.
Chlorine, as far as I have been told, will escape to the atmosphere (evaporate) but that has more to do with its chemical state - not all will evaporate.
Treating the water with vinegar (light acid) is designed to react with the carbonates which will make the undesirable component precipitate out (form a 'metal' and sink to the bottom faster) and split off some of the components into Hydrogen gas (which will escape the water) - if my High School Chemistry is still correct.

In other words it'll clean up the water and, hopefully, make it more useful (read better) for the trees. Were I live, chlorine isn't the main issue!


BTW: after much "shmoosing" I have HER blessing to put an IBC into our garden, as long as she can't see it ... now, to find a pressure pump and regulator ... How much pressure should I be looking for before it turns into a pressure cleaner?

[fredman]

Hi Elmar. I did a lot of research a few years ago and since then I've been using battery acid (sulphuric acid) instead of vinegar. Cant remember why its better though. Don't feel like all that Googleing again right now..... Anyway it works a treat. I add 4ml to 60l water and that brings the pH down to 6.0
It dissolves the carbs and bicarbs immediately. You can actually see how milky it goes....

[Neli]

I have a borehole (well) My water has GH 200 and KH 150, PH 8.5. I put a drum up on the stand where my water tank is and connected it to the Koi pond filtration system. I water with that, but never ever water the leaves of my trees or they will turn white. My trees look nice and fresh...green because of that.
Untill recently I used to add acid in my water with every watering. I dont think it helped and the trees that were watered with that water did not look too good, so I stopped. I had marked the pots with stickers so my gardener was watering only few of them with acid water.
Remember PH and GH are different things. Vinegar helps with PH but does nothing to the hardness of the water.

[Elmar]

Well, went to the local pool shop and asked them to do an analysis with the following outcome:
Chlorine - 0.41;
pH - 8.1;
Alkalinity - 230 (now I don't know what this means).

Not sure what I was expecting ... Perhaps someone can explain what these mean otherwise I will have to go back and ask them. Will see if I can get something more detailed...


Cheers
EZ
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[Jarad]

Well, went to the local pool shop and asked them to do an analysis with the following outcome:
Chlorine - 0.41;
pH - 8.1;
Alkalinity - 230 (now I don't know what this means).

Not sure what I was expecting ... Perhaps someone can explain what these mean otherwise I will have to go back and ask them. Will see if I can get something more detailed...

Did anyone get back to you about these results?

[Elmar]

Not as yet.
Main thing I found is that the alkalinity and calcium flavours the algae growth... So not sure what effect they have on plant growth....


Cheers
Elmar

[Rory]

If you have excess calcium in the water, it will show as a powdery residue on the foliage and exterior and everywhere like a very thin coating that you can wipe off with your fingers. If it is only on the holes near the drainage it is almost definitely not a calcium buildup.