Things we don't much do in bonsai. Why?

[tgward]

if maximum diversity was the goal ,everything would be "quality" and we wouldn't need to train any plant--if "quality" is the aim ,diversity reduces.

[tgward]

.......possibly then "quality" reduces boredom

[Rory]

I believe in diversity . Diversity of race ,religion ,sexual orientation I have no hang ups about . The more diversity the better as far as I'm concerned . Getting back to bonsai if we all followed someone's rules like being natural ,classical ,traditional or whatever rules that people want to restrict themselves too we would be bored silly . I have respect for all the above and I will listen to ideas but I will always follow my own path . I'll give it a rest now .

In my opinion this is the greatest post ever written on this forum.

I've told you a million times, don't exaggerate.

I agree with so much of your Bonsai philosophy Mike, but this one matters to me. I live by Sno’s words, and I affirm my declaration that I love that quote of his.

[GavinG]

Diversity enriches, dominance impoverishes options. Why are you so afraid of minorities Mike? - you will always be in the group with more power. Other options are not a threat. Really.

tgward: poor logic. Diversity does not mean that everything is "quality" - there is a wide range of interesting shapes in bonsai, but they can be done well, or badly. "Rule-driven" bonsai will only accept a limited number of these possibilities.

Can we get back to bonsai? And photos.

Gavin

[Elmer]

Having followed this thread back and forth this quote seemed appropriate and for me shows where the art is at here.
"Innovation is the only way forward for bonsai. To practice an art you need total freedom to release your creativity. Bonsai must not be locked in a stagnant tradition, which itself was born from hundreds of successful innovations. A tradition that no longer innovates and creates is bound to disappear." François Jeker. From @pacificbonsaimuseum regarding upcoming LAB sessions.

[anthonyW]

Here we go, Gavin has asked for some input here and hopefully I can match my trees and trees in progress to these thoughts and images, if it sounds confusing, hopefully the images and trees can tell a better story, one tree is in maintenance mode and the other very much a working progress.

Looking at the images of figs, they are of structure of thick trunks with strong rising branches with shear weight bringing them back down with many upper branching repeating off the back of the lower heavy branching, many times they radiate close as from the initial position then upward and out in various heights to make the structure of a very very wide canopy not always with one one central trunk and in other cases observed a more dominant central especially in taller figs will proceed and then fire them out in the same fashion...why I think looking for more light in heavy forest situation upward to continually dominate, so the canopy is observed as not as wide as our open thick trunk figs which have no competition as such.

the images here are of typical open growing figs with a close up of there structure in my immediate area... my figs were grown from the get go with a very heavy sway/direction or inspiration to nature when first designed, the more established fig with the three individual trunks to form the integrity, started approx 2010 and the.... progressing fig made in the ground with 9 fused cuttings a inch to inch and a half with many others 5 to 7 years ago with as said with nature in mind from get go.

The figs are a little further on in design, but here is earlier stripped down structure to show our intent.... hope this helps and what you are looking for Gav....cheers

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[tgward]

Diversity enriches, dominance impoverishes options. Why are you so afraid of minorities Mike? - you will always be in the group with more power. Other options are not a threat. Really.

tgward: poor logic. Diversity does not mean that everything is "quality" - there is a wide range of interesting shapes in bonsai, but they can be done well, or badly. "Rule-driven" bonsai will only accept a limited number of these possibilities.

Can we get back to bonsai? And photos.

Gavin

"If maximum diversity is the goal"-----did you not read this?

[tgward]

Diversity enriches, dominance impoverishes options. Why are you so afraid of minorities Mike? - you will always be in the group with more power. Other options are not a threat. Really.

tgward: poor logic. Diversity does not mean that everything is "quality" - there is a wide range of interesting shapes in bonsai, but they can be done well, or badly. "Rule-driven" bonsai will only accept a limited number of these possibilities.

Can we get back to bonsai? And photos.

Gavin

how do you know if it is "done well or badly"--there is no "done well or badly " if diversity is the aim.There is only "done well or badly" if quality is the aim.

[GavinG]

Thanks for the photos anthonyW - your care and attention to line and style are giving results that reflect what's out there very well.

tgward: I have read what you posted. My comments stand. No-one has claimed that "maximum diversity was the goal" - that's just something you have set up so that you can knock it down. And yes, you can tell if something is done well or badly in a wide diversity of styles and possibilities. It's called artistic judgement - and that's a rabbit-hole I won't go down. Quality and diversity in bonsai are not opposites, for me. Different species require different treatment, that's a given. How diverse you go is up to you.

Gavin

[treeman]

I believe in diversity . Diversity of race ,religion ,sexual orientation I have no hang ups about . The more diversity the better as far as I'm concerned . Getting back to bonsai if we all followed someone's rules like being natural ,classical ,traditional or whatever rules that people want to restrict themselves too we would be bored silly . I have respect for all the above and I will listen to ideas but I will always follow my own path . I'll give it a rest now .

In my opinion this is the greatest post ever written on this forum.

I've told you a million times, don't exaggerate.

I agree with so much of your Bonsai philosophy Mike, but this one matters to me. I live by Sno’s words, and I affirm my declaration that I love that quote of his.

I won't hold it against you.

[treeman]

"GavinG"]



Why are you so afraid of minorities Mike?

When did I say that?

Diversity enriches, dominance impoverishes options.

Not always. Depends on how much and what kind of diversity. You cannot use a blanket statement like that.
Also, if you take sno's contention that ''the more diversity the better'' to it's ultimate conclusion, you end up with chaos and integrity is lost. There always must be a dominant force and it's the only way a society or nature itself can function.

[treeman]

how do you know if it is "done well or badly"--there is no "done well or badly " if diversity is the aim.There is only "done well or badly" if quality is the aim.

Exactly. This is where the subtlety of the argument is often lost on a lot of people.
Diversity for it's own sake is just plain stupid. It comes about from ideology being the most important factor rather analysis of reality.

[tgward]

Gavin--I was addressing a previous post by someone here--"the more diversity the better as far as I'm concerned"--

[Sno]

Treeman s words
(Also, if you take sno's contention that ''the more diversity the better'' to it's ultimate conclusion, you end up with chaos and integrity is lost. There always must be a dominant force and it's the only way a society or nature itself can function.)

Without diversity in nature the obvious conclusion is extinction . Without diversity in society there is stagnation . The dominant force never remains dominate forever .

A few photos of a branch growing on a manna gum .

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This branch has grown in a full circle .the original "dominant leader" died off yet the branch was strong enough to turn the other way and take a new direction .

image.jpeg

With diversity there are always options . The last photo is a little blurry but you can see a new green shoot emerging from the trunk halfway in the circle .

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[treeman]

Sno,
I'm afraid you are not very clear on what you think you believe. Firstly, you can not have a tree without dominance. It is the most fundamental force that creates the tree. If you tried to grow a tree in zero gravity and an equal intensity of light from all directions, what would you have? You would have a plethora of diversity (lots of individual branches competing with the next one), and no tree. You have proven my case with your own example. One branch becomes dominant at the expense of another because it was in a better position to receive sunlight. That's how thing work. If all the inhabitants of the forest were equal - Gums, grass, understory shrubs, birds, insects etc; where equal, you would have no forest. So, diversity can be good, but you need dominance along with it.
I don't have time right now but perhaps tomorrow I will elaborate.