When to break/chop - river gums, swamp paperbark and moonah

[MJL]

I have a few questions (and observations) related to my entries into the [Natural] competition. As they are questions/observations across all of my entries entries, I am posting here as a new topic as it may be of general interest to forum members. Apologies if this is the wrong spot.

Before I begin - I am sure there is not one right answer and I think it is always a balance between growing trunks and clip 'n' grow but any guidance will be appreciated and then, I'll choose a path.

For context, early in all these plantings, I used wire and clip'n'grow' to set desired movement and encourage low branching (and movement in the low branches too). It seems to have worked.

More recently - the last few months - I have been letting them grow rampant to fatten trunks and low branches. Photos below show 'rampentness' .

I am starting to feel like I am losing 'control' - perhaps we never have 'control' over trees but I hope you get what I mean. I am wondering - and here are a few questions:

How long - particularly on the gums, should I let them grow before break the trunks? (I will break rather than chop - as I think it looks more natural for these trees and alas, that is the competition.) To try and answer it myself ... I am not a fat-trunk for fat-trunk's sake kinda guy; indeed, I generally prefer fluid, languid looking trees - especially natives but we still need taper and we still some width to create the perception of age that is so important to our hobby. For the [Natural] competition and its time horizon, I am finding it hard to know when to move back to clip and grow. Perhaps the time horizon of the competition is irrelevant - regardless, I am not sure how long to leave the trees to 'free growth'.

Based on the photos below - should I continue to grow and break in Autumn - or break soon and let them sprout again in this prime growing season? OF do nothing and break next Summer!

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Further, particularly for the gums - I am wondering how low to break ... I don't want to lose the fluid movement created to date. How low to go?

A couple of other observations of interest for readers too.

These group plantings are in reasonably big clay training pots; the pots sit in 51cm plastic trays. These trays hold nearly 5 litres of water. Along with overhead watering via a hose, those trays are being emptied through plants drinking or evaporation - once every 24 hrs!! I think evaporation is minimal - the plants are in a wind protected area and further more...the clay training pots take up a lot of surface area. (Come to think of it - I have not considered displacement) - given displacement, perhaps the trees are only drinking 3 litres (plus watering once per day per day) ... regardless... it is heaps!!

The move to water trays has been relative recent. I would estimate that, since moving to waters trays trees are growing 20% faster - purely a subjective measure but these group plantings are goings nuts.

I am feeding the trees with liquid fertiliser every two weeks ...a spot of Seasol now and then.

The gums and swampies are growing really fast and the plantings (base to tips of new growth) are both over a metre high from the pot. The moonahs are much slower - probably 60 cm high from the base of the pot. To me this makes sense, I believe moonah's are relatively slow growers.

(PS - Finally, before we all rush off and submerge plants and seedlings in water ... please note that these are group plantings and I am trying my best to monitor their environment; I am not saying go out and drown your plants and rot your roots ... I am simply providing my recent observations that may be of interest to others on this forum)

Thanks for reading. Any thoughts/advice appreciated.

[Raging Bull]

Hi MJ,
Here's another question for you. Does the most natural of all, Mother Nature ( Pardon the pun), decide which time of the year to induce our trees to drop a branch, let it get hit by lightening, or a storm? I would argue no, these are for the most part random events. So when should you do the same to your potted trees? Whenever you feel like it! To them you are Mother Nature, so control your children any way you see fit. My
Cheers, Frank.

[MJL]

Thanks Frank. I like the idea. Frighteningly liberating - if not scary for the poor tree. I guess my question is also oriented to what is optimal for the growth of the tree too. I don’t want to unwittingly set it back or lose a growing season ... for example, I reckon my not repotting my young English elms yearly - sets back their growth the following season, quite significantly. Yet it seems the advice around natives is not to disturb the roots at this young age....

To the question clipping or letting grow - so far, clipping the trees seems to have only to have spurred more growth across the trees; my gut feel is to the break the gums right now and trim the other trees too but this will set trunk growth back.... decisions, decisions ....

Yet, I think I tend to overwork trees and the best action here might be inaction - just let ‘em grow for the summer and the clip/break back in Autumn.

I guess your point is they are my trees, my decision ... act and learn.


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[Keep Calm and Ramify]

To the question clipping or letting grow - so far, clipping the trees seems to have only to have spurred more growth across the trees; my gut feel is to the break the gums right now and trim the other trees too but this will set trunk growth back..

OK - Plain and simple advice from me MJ is do it.. do it now.
I gave my comp tree (a dwarf mel.) a really hard cut back yesterday. Trying to develop better primary (& secondary) branching, I had to completely remove some areas that I had wired movement into earlier, because they had now become too long or I could see were becoming un-important to the design. I'm hoping for another flush of growth this season whilst its still really hot here.
I'm growing a dwarf variety so not really concerned about building trunk girth.
At the conclusion of the Natural comp, I am hoping to be able to show a tree that can display an overall aged appearance throughout, rather than showing I can grow a big trunk, but have underdeveloped branches growing off it.

Not much time left - only 2 years. Start trusting your "gut feelings" tool.

[TimS]

I'm going totally the opposite direction to simple advice!

At the fundamental level, it is a stress response of gums to drop branches that are pulling excessive demands on the tree that cannot be sustained. This is why they can be dangerous to be around or near during hot, dry spells. River Red Gum is probably the most notable for this. Basically they uptake as much as they can in the wet months, put on as much growth as they can, then eek out an existence during the summer. When the following rain comes they repeat.

If there is a drought or an extended time without access to water, that's when the big limbs will drop as the tree sheds the foliage that is transpiring beyond the capacity of the tree to uptake enough water to offset it. If you have a Red Gum in a wet spot, or a significant amount of water is available for long enough, it is highly unlikely they will drop branches except in extreme conditions.

Other common factors are: Lightning, fires animal damage and snow load (in some cases not necessarily the species you mention).

Lightning: In the case of a lightning strike to a tree in nature, it would likely do significant damage to the tree, potentially splitting it from apex to base. If you are trying to replicate a lightning strike, simply leaving a stub of a branch would not (in my opinion) be sufficient to suggest this. I would take a bonsai Euc or gum with a branch stub as being more like snow damage.

Fire: Fire damage would again be significant to the entirety of the tree. I'm not saying it would kill the tree, but you would not be likely to see a little bit here or there on it. Use of a small kitchen torch to scorch the tree would be a way to give a true representation. The effect on the growth habit after the fire would be totally different to how the mature tree would have looked before. It would be lush and bushy as epicormic growth all over the tree sprouts in response. This response is the tree rolling the dice on expending energy it doesn't have the capacity to actually recoup (no leaves on the tree after the fire to photosynthesis to fuel the growth) so it throws out as much as it possibly can to get foliar surface area as quickly as possible. This growth will be totally at odds with the previous habit of the tree. It is still a valid bonsai style to head for, but is difficult to maintain over time as the epicormic growth is only there to recover the tree to health, and in nature would die off as primary branches take back over again.

Animal damage: In my opinion, if you are creating thin or extending branch stubs into secondary or tertiary ramification, what you are really showing is animal activity. Whether that is wild horses in the high country, feral camels or whatever it may be. An extended dead branch below a full canopy suggests to me that it is at a height that can be reached by animals and fed upon. This is totally valid, but needs to be considered in the scale of the tree. If you have a 50cm tree, but your dead branches are 30cm up, that is a very very small tree if a horse is perhaps 25cm in relation to the tree (assuming they can stretch their necks up to reach the extra 5cm). an 80cm tree with dead branches at 10cm would be totally appropriate to suggest this impact on a large, mature specimen.

Snow Load: This for me is species specific and would need to be tied into the actual planting, or some other way of suggesting the environment. For example you could legitimately use Snow Gum for this, but Snow Gum grows very very happily at sea level too. To simply use a Snow Gum doesn't clarify where the tree is being suggested to be growing. Snow load would be shown (again in my opinion only) by quite an asymmetrical design, coupled with flattened primary branch movement, and dropping tips. I don't say weeping or windswept because there will be the majority of the year where they are untroubled by Snow, but will be wind impacted and this wouldn't give a perpetually down swept look. Flattened and ripped or torn stubs might be appropriate for expressing snow load damage.

Why i don't count wind as an impact for branch dropping is because for a branch to drop in the wind, it almost definitely must have been dead/ diseased or damaged already. Yes a particularly violet storm will break healthy branches, but it is unlikely to snap a thick trunk. It would be more likely to pull the whole tree out of the ground. Usually the wind is simply the straw that broke the camel's back. It would have dropped at some point anyway whether wind or the tree letting it go. It was the mode of action rather than the causation.

Timing is a bit here nor there as you can tell by what I've said above as the causes. Drought and fires might suggest summer, but who's to say damage inflicted in summer would cause immediate branch loss? It could sit there until a winter storm that breaks it off. Similarly branches weighed down by snow might be weakened significantly in those months, but the tree waits until summer to drop them because up until then it had water available as the snow melted to carry the damage along.

Really the answer is anytime. Trees in good health are able to handle it. I would be giving the thought to what you are precisely trying to replicate or insinuate, and studying how that presents itself in nature more so than a timing of work.

[MJL]

Howdy KC&R and Tim,
Firstly, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond and Tim, your further thoughts/detail is greatly appreciated too.

What’s quite interesting is whether it be Frank, KC&R or Tim... anytime is the right time, soon even better. Depending on what I am trying to achieve ....

For me, confidence re: Bonsai technique is coming slowly but it is coming ... in fact, I am miles ahead of even this time last year but I still like to check-in with those with more knowledge and experience. Cheers for the ongoing thoughts and guidance.


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[TimS]

I should have added in that another consideration is that eucs method for healing damage is a little different to other species that just seal off behind where the damage occurred.

If a short stub is left they will roll over the entire stub and envelope it totally, so I would be included to make longer sections to prevent it healing over and leaving a weird bulge in time

[shibui]

Not sure I agree with all your theories about trees losing branches.
It is certainly a fact that red gums are known to suddenly drop large limbs in the heat of summer. I do not agree with your theory that these trees choose to drop limbs. My understanding is that in order to cool themselves these trees are effectively pumping larger amounts of water to the foliage. That can result in the branches becoming heavier, and in some cases, heavy enough to break. Trees with access to water still drop limbs. Red gums along the Murray river where they have access to constant moisture are notorious for dropping large limbs on campers.

A normal voluntary response to moisture stress is for the trees to shed individual leaves. Eucs in this area are currently doing that and we have a constant rain of leaves falling from roadside (and presumably trees in the bush) as they try to adjust to the current dry conditions.
The actual mechanism of branch shedding probably has no bearing on this case. The relevant fact is that the tree survive broken branches in summer.

I think you may also have misinterpreted the intent of the animal pruning aspect. I believe that MJL is looking at how trees respond after various events. Smaller, juvenile trees can also be grazed by both small and larger herbivores and recover. For the purposes of this we are probably more interested in how smaller seedlings respond after grazing rather than the final outcome of mature trees being grazed.

My thoughts on timing and response to pruning is that trees is that trees always respond faster when the pruning is done just before or during a growth period. That does not necessarily mean that the total growth will be more when pruned at that stage. Even if the pruning is done well before growth period the tree will still grow when the the growth period comes so total growth will still eventually be the same so don't worry too much about when.

As far as pruning off your preset movement, don't be too precious about what you already have. If pruning will give a better result then you should prune. The new growth can always be wired to reset movement. The result may even be better with your previous experience.
I know that Euc response to pruning can be unpredictable so even with the best info and intention you may find some more dieback than expected or intended which may mean a change to your plans. Try not to worry beforehand, just have a go and see what happens.

[GavinG]

There are plenty of mature Eucs around here that have dead medium and small branches that are not animal damaged - the dead branches are scattered all through the tree. It can be a very powerful design.

MJL, I'd leave everything for a year to thicken -they're not anywhere near strong yet. I think you feel like you should be doing something. Me, not so much.

Gavin

[MJL]

MJL, I think you feel like you should be doing something.
Gavin

Yep. I am learning that inaction is actually sometimes the best action in Bonsai.

I’ll pause ... perhaps with the odd exception of a few branches that I know do not fit the direction I am taking and I’d like growth elsewhere.

Shibui, thank you for your response too. I’ve said it before but again ...the active and respectful participation of so many people makes AusBonsai a valuable and helpful resource. It’s quite brilliant.

In the end, it is for the artist/grower to make their own decisions; as is the case here with my natives and indeed, other trees. I find the variety of views and thoughts instructive and they all help me make better decisions.




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[Matt S]

Hi Mark,

I'd be tempted to let them thicken up a bit and then cut (or break) back hard. Keep in mind that Eucs tend to have large primary branches that match the thickness of the trunk, so let the trunk and main branches all thicken together. Once at the appropriate thickness, chop the whole tree and start with the secondary branches. Red gums are susceptible to dropping branches or parts of branches if growth is too strong below that point, so relying on sacrifice branches later on is a risk.

I think anytime if fine for a major prune, although I tend to avoid mid winter as the tree can be sluggish to respond.

I also think lots of deadwood is key. If no one is looking you can glue suitable twigs and branches at appropriate points and paint them black.

Matt.

[Keep Calm and Ramify]

I also think lots of deadwood is key. If no one is looking you can glue suitable twigs and branches at appropriate points and paint them black.

Matt.

I think this would be classed as using "foreign deadwood" & within the comp timeframe is a no-no? Rory may need to clarify?

[Matt S]

I think this would be classed as using "foreign deadwood" & within the comp timeframe is a no-no? Rory may need to clarify?

Sorry, just to clarify I wasn’t suggesting this for the competition, just for eucalyptus in general. Rereading my post it wasn’t clear. My bad.

[Rory]

Hi MJL,

Great post, and great to see so many experienced minds coming together.

As far as the ‘foreign deadwood’ or Tanuki issue is suggested, that is correct that it is not allowed in this comp.
It must only be the actual tree itself. Deadwood must be from the tree itself, not attached.

As you are growing Eucalytpus in this 3 year comp, I would suggest you do the opposite of what you plan.

I would cut back the areas you want to keep and ramify now, and allow the areas you don’t want to keep, to extend and continue growing. This time of year is usually fine for Eucs to shoot back with low chance of die-back. The material will respond quicker because you are allowing the unwanted areas to continue to provide food from photosynthesis while the cut-back areas are slowed down and have to produce new shoots.
Generally, the more leaves you leave on means the greater the exponential growth of the tree.

If you cut off all the unwanted areas now, you just delay the time period later on that the tree will recover when you actually try to get ramification later on by cutting back and having no foliage to fallback on and hasten the recovery.

If you cut back the whole thing now, or worse if you do it outside the fast growing period, you increase the chances of slight die-back (though very low chance at this time of year) but more importantly you slow it down a lot as the tree has to start from root nutrients and has no leaves left to generate and aid the process.

But this is just my opinion. I prefer longer, less tapered Eucs, but everyone is different.

However, the science of increasing the growth recovery is something I speak from experience with. Again, this is just my recommendation.
Also, I don’t believe that cutting back Eucs at any time is irrelevant. I would not suggest you cut back Eucs in winter for die back or worse: total branch death.

Good luck and have fun.

[MJL]

You folks are bloody fantastic. I really do enjoy Sunday morning... the rest of the house asleep and quietly catching up on the latest news ... world, local and Bonsai.

For the sake of clarity - I will not be adding external deadwood but I thank Matt for the idea in a general (non competition) sense.

Rory, wonderful explanation - the context and logic helps my deeper understanding.

Cheers with a coffee from my courtyard! I sit with a very light rain falling on my very bald head and toast you all. My thoughts are with everyone affected by the fires too. Keep safe and may luck be with you.

On the fires - you are probably across various campaigns re: donations and support but here's a link to the Red Cross https://www.redcross.org.au/campaigns/d ... ery-donate

and also direct support to Gippsland via the East Gippsland Emergency Fund, a registered charity which provides immediate emergency funds to fire affected people in East Gippsland.https://www.gerf.org.au

Of course, fires are across the nation so many more channels exist too.