Defining what makes a bonsai, a bonsai.

[Pup]

A Bonsai is a plant in a pot ( tray ) as defined by all the books that we have read on the subject. Some people will sat that is a very literal translation.

I have had some people put radishes in a Bonsai pot, Matt put a watermelon in a Bonsai pot, even Bunnings put them sticks it Bonsai pots. That does not make a Bonsai of it.

Matt I believe this is a valid question as we have as many varied answers to this as we do to potting mixes.

Jamie, please be careful Azalea's are shrubs, as are many of the Melaleuca's remember they are described as Tree and or shrubs. Shrubs do make very good Bonsai.

My personal opinion for what it is worth is a tree and or shrub that has been styled by Man ( as in Homosapian ) to represent a Tree in miniature.
This must be done in a manner as to be artistic, and show no real sign of man"s involvement, which is what makes a good Bonsai stand out from a stick or radish.
In a Bonsai pot.

Size is of Conjecture because if a tree naturally grows to 15 to 20 meters in height at 2 metres it is a miniature of that tree.

In Bonsai culture, sizes are ambiguous, there is a starting size to most, overlap the next size up for starting such as Mame start at will fit in the palm of the hand by one Book to Mame size trees will fit up to 5 in the palm of the hand.
I have trees that are 4mm in size I can fit 4 safely. Now Shohin under 20cm in some books others 23 cm.
Bonsai Kia London UK's oldest formal Bonsai club. Rules the Shohin shall be under 6inches ( 15cm ) including pot. There is also a Shito size which is very small. Then you have Ippan which is from 45 cm to 1meter.

That is how I see Bonsai, as artistically, created pieces of Art from living tree's and or shrubs.
Cheers Pup
Ps the management reserves the right to say rgestuffed.

[MattA]

i havent heard this, but i cant say i agree either. could you refernece this quote for us mate?

Sorry Jamie i really couldnt say, lost somewhere in the mists of time.

but i dont think the term bonsai should be used for a watermelon personally.

It was more as an example of how the term can be misconstrue without a full understanding of what it means for a plant to be a bonsai. I have seen many examples of 'bonsai' in nursery's etc that i would never class as such but they do.

as for the upper limits of size i find a very open mind helps, but to be a bonsai i think to get technical it should at least be in a pot, not a area of ground that has been raised to imitate a pot. as lovely as those massive trees are and how much they look like bonsai i think i would call them landscape trees.

I refer to trees that are often found in temples, among other places, they are very much in pots & not in raised beds. Styled just as a smaller tree would be tho the pots tend to be more like normal garden pots, as deep as wide.

i think the 1/6th of the natural tree is a bit odd, i have heard of trunk to height ratio and supposedly 6 to 1 is perfect but in modern times 10-1 and 12-1 have been accepted, or at the other end of the scale in the sumo style of 3-1 or 2-1. i do feel this topic is of a personal preference and each person is gonna have something different to say.

This also comes down to which way the person leans bonsai or penjing. Having seen a recent book at my club library from korea there are perceptible differences to both schools. With penjing there is even a style specially for tall & thin, nowhere near even 12-1 ratio the Towering trees style.

Matt

[MattA]

[quote=]I have had some people put radishes in a Bonsai pot[/quote]
Radishes... why didnt I think of that. Sorry about the watermelon it was just sitting there & I thought it could open a can of worms
[quote=]
Jamie, please be careful Azalea's are shrubs, as are many of the Melaleuca's remember they are described as Tree and or shrubs. Shrubs do make very good Bonsai.[/quote]
As do alot of herbs, of which alot are perenials. Then we go into the accent plants & they can be almost anything, I have even seen dandelion.
[quote=]
My personal opinion for what it is worth is a tree and or shrub that has been styled by Man ( as in Homosapian ) to represent a Tree in miniature.[/quote]
What of trees that have been collected & had nothing more than trimming to keep the shape nature has made. I know this is rare these days, nothing comes out of nature fitting our perceptions of what a bonsai is so we alter it. In the beginning, so some historians will tell us, bonsai originated with trees simply collected from the wild & tended in pots, there is no mention of styling or reworking them.
[quote=]
Size is of Conjecture because if a tree naturally grows to 15 to 20 meters in height at 2 metres it is a miniature of that tree.
That is how I see Bonsai, as artistically, created pieces of Art from living tree's and or shrubs.
Cheers Pup
Ps the management reserves the right to say rgestuffed.[/quote]
And that brings us back to the original premise, is being a diminuitive version of its true form enough to class it as bonsai?
Thanks for the input pup

Matt

[Pup]

[=]
My personal opinion for what it is worth is a tree and or shrub that has been styled by Man ( as in Homosapian ) to represent a Tree in miniature.[/quote]
What of trees that have been collected & had nothing more than trimming to keep the shape nature has made. I know this is rare these days, nothing comes out of nature fitting our perceptions of what a bonsai is so we alter it. In the beginning, so some historians will tell us, bonsai originated with trees simply collected from the wild & tended in pots, there is no mention of styling or reworking them.

By the very fact that they have put them into pots and pruned the roots and stems to maintain there shape is Mans influence on the tree and or shrub.
Thereby creating a Bonsai. I have collected tree's, of my own that, other than open the structure, so the inner foiliage will not die. I have done, as you put it nothing to the tree. I also put it in a Bonsai pot.
[quote=]

Size is of Conjecture because if a tree naturally grows to 15 to 20 meters in height at 2 metres it is a miniature of that tree.
That is how I see Bonsai, as artistically, created pieces of Art from living tree's and or shrubs.
Cheers Pup
Ps the management reserves the right to say rgestuffed.[/quote]
And that brings us back to the original premise, is being a diminuitive version of its true form enough to class it as bonsai?
Thanks for the input pup

Matt[/quote]

[Ron]

I've been following this discussion with interest so when I watched this YouTube video a few minutes (which is really an infomercial), I couldn't help thinking about this topic.

Can Bonsai production and retailing on this scale really be called Bonsai? Is this the ultimate example of just trees in a pot called Bonsai?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmyRdflQu-g

Personally I think it cheapens the whole thing and can imagine hundreds and hundreds of pots all over the US with nothing in them but dead trees.

[Josh7]

lol. loving this topic and agree with what everyone has said. Here is my take.
I've read in a few Bonsai magazines & books, and seen first hand, that bonsai should only be grown as high as 1.5 - 1.7m. I tend to agree with this for a couple of reasons. First, a 1.7m tree would be a decent sized tree, and it woud have a decent pot, so it would weigh a bit. Might not be very convenient to move for pruning/ repotting etc (if needed).
Second, if we kept 'Bonsai' to 1/6th it's natural size as some members have said, we would see some Gums, Redwoods, Pines etc potentially up to 10m+ in height in pots (which would be spectacular).
I guess we can refer to the true meaning of bonsai, which is basically a plant in a pot. Could be any size.

[Jamie]

i obviously didnt word myself right when i said shrub in a pot, with what i was stating as shrub in a pot is something like this

socalledbonsai.jpg

(yes i know the species isnt a shrub, but this is what i am using as a example of shrub like in a pot)

the above image is being sold as bonsai, and similar stuff with differing species, when i say shrub in a pot it was in the sense of like the above. personally i dont beleive this is bonsai, i also apologise for the misunderstanding.

i have to pretty much agree with pup on everything he has said exactly what my mind was thinking.

bonsai to me as a majority has to have some sort of human involvement, some form of styling (and i dont think the above example could be called a styling even if it is the trees natural habit while juvenielle ) there isnt many of the naturally found yamadori these days, and if they are found there would be no way to collect them unless you are willing to risk the consequences. so that eliminates that option, but there are trees that can be collected from the wild that have attributes of bonsai but generally need to be unlocked.
the one thing i do have to ask pup is if a tree naturally grows to 20 metres high and that same species of tree is found only 20 metres away but is the same age but only two metres high, yes i beleive that is a miniture of the species, but i dont think i could call it bonsai.

maybe i missed the point there, or i just need to get some sleep

JMO.

jamie

[Bretts]

by Pup
My personal opinion for what it is worth is a tree and or shrub that has been styled by Man ( as in Homosapian ) to represent a Tree in miniature.
This must be done in a manner as to be artistic, and show no real sign of man"s involvement, which is what makes a good Bonsai stand out from a stick or radish.
In a Bonsai pot.

I have always had a slight problem with this definition.

and show no real sign of man"s involvement

Why can't a bonsai be of a great old tree on a farm say next to an old tin shed with evidence of where the farmer has chopped some branches of as they where in the way. Or the same in a park!

This is why I leave the definition as Art makes it Bonsai. As soon as you put your artistic influence on the tree in a pot it has the right to be called bonsai wether you like it or not.

victor11.jpg

bonsai.jpg

[Bretts]

what i was stating as shrub in a pot is something like this

I think that can be made into bonsai without picking up a pair of cutters

[Joel]

Not just trees or shrubs, herbs too. And i dont mean a herb like rosemary, which is actually a shrub, i mean a herbaceous soft wooded perrenial, such as the Ombu.

A also disagree it must look like a natural tree. Personally, i like the natural look. But i am yet to see any trees in the wild that resemble Kimuras work.

Joel

[Bretts]

by Ron
I've been following this discussion with interest so when I watched this YouTube video a few minutes (which is really an infomercial), I couldn't help thinking about this topic.

Can Bonsai production and retailing on this scale really be called Bonsai? Is this the ultimate example of just trees in a pot called Bonsai?
Personally I think it cheapens the whole thing and can imagine hundreds and hundreds of pots all over the US with nothing in them but dead trees.

That is an awesome vid Ron. I wish we had a Brussel's Bonsai
I don't think it cheapens it at all. There are some amazing trees in that lot. Do you draw a line at some stage of greatness and say these are bonsai and those are not. Just because there are so many does not degrade Bonsai in fact I find it heavenly. Who said that bonsai had to be difficult to be bonsai.
The artistic thought in each of those trees is limited and this goes up as the tree is older I guess so where do you draw the line. You could call them blank canvases but they have more artistic thought than that. Some are similar to copied prints but what copied print do you keep improving?
They are all Bonsai to me. Some are just better than others but that is also a matter of opinion and that is art

[Jarrod]

My opinion. And this is all I will say on the matter. Originally it was "tree in tray or pot" however I think it has now evolved to a point where it is more then that. It's more about the art. Bretts original answer is the most clear cut way of summing it up for me. I think size is irrelevant, though there is a point where it becomes difficult to maintain.

[Bretts]

As a side note Check out Brussles Bonsai Yearly Event.
What a line up
http://www.brusselsbonsai.com/about_us/ ... 2010.shtml

[anttal63]

My personal opinion for what it is worth is a tree and or shrub that has been styled by Man ( as in Homosapian ) to represent a Tree in miniature.
This must be done in a manner as to be artistic, and show no real sign of man"s involvement, which is what makes a good Bonsai stand out from a stick or radish.
In a Bonsai pot.
Cheers Pup
Ps the management reserves the right to say rgestuffed.

I am with you on this Pup. ONLY when a tree has reached this level, it deserves the title, "Bonsai". The word bonsai is used very loosely and has become so, for commercial vialbility. If anyone thinks they can just put a plant in a pot and wire it, then call it bonsai, may as well play with lego's and call themselve's a builder too. Sorry in advance if thats rubbed anyone up the wrong way!

[craigw60]

I have always been of the understanding thai 1m is about the height limit for a bonsai but as with all things in this art form everything is open to interpretation. I have a tree that is slightly over 1m and I am firmly convinced its a bonsai.
As to what makes a bonsai again that would be open to the interpretation of the artist. I would have thought a level of training would be required. There are certainly a lot of trees out there in pots that do not look much like bonsai but the growers are happy with them so who can question that. I think that the word bonsai has a much deeper meaning than the literal interpretation.
Craig