Branch position CEDAR

[Fukien beech]

Hello bonsai family!

I am about to shape a cedar. Now, the natural structure of the tree makes the primary branch 1.5 cm below the secondary branch. I was wondering...could I pull down the secondary branch to make that the primary branch even though its higher? And then keep what was the primary branch and make that the secondary branch by pulling it up? So I want to just swap the primary and secondary branches around but keeping in mind-If this is done then the primary branch base would be a tad higher that the secondary branch base? Does that make sense? Would it make my cedar just look bizarre? I know I would be breaking many rules of bonsai but I am an eager apprentice looking for some wisdom!! 


Believe it or not...I spent many hours yesterday evening contemplating the main branch structure of my tree...it wasn't until I got up in the middle of the night for a snack-then thought il have a look at the cedar again-that made me pull the branches down in the way I have explained above and it looked ok! Maybe it was a mid night revelation! Ha!
Thanks guys

[Scott Roxburgh]

Hello bonsai family!

I am about to shape a cedar. Now, the natural structure of the tree makes the primary branch 1.5 cm below the secondary branch. I was wondering...could I pull down the secondary branch to make that the primary branch even though its higher? And then keep what was the primary branch and make that the secondary branch by pulling it up? So I want to just swap the primary and secondary branches around but keeping in mind-If this is done then the primary branch base would be a tad higher that the secondary branch base? Does that make sense? Would it make my cedar just look bizarre? I know I would be breaking many rules of bonsai but I am an eager apprentice looking for some wisdom!! 


Believe it or not...I spent many hours yesterday evening contemplating the main branch structure of my tree...it wasn't until I got up in the middle of the night for a snack-then thought il have a look at the cedar again-that made me pull the branches down in the way I have explained above and it looked ok! Maybe it was a mid night revelation! Ha!
Thanks guys

I think we need a picture?

[Gerard]

Hi,
I saw this tree on Sunday, and I do not have a clue....definitely need a picture. Then hopefully someone will share ideas maybe even a virt.

[Fukien beech]

Indeed you did! You took some time away from your busy stall to answer my amateur questions!
You suggested something a bit too high tech for me though

Il put up some pics when I get home-thanks guys!!

[Andrew Legg]

Hello bonsai family!

Believe it or not...I spent many hours yesterday evening contemplating the main branch structure of my tree...it wasn't until I got up in the middle of the night for a snack-then thought il have a look at the cedar again-that made me pull the branches down in the way I have explained above and it looked ok! Maybe it was a mid night revelation! Ha!
Thanks guys

Well, the first thing you did right was spend many hours thinking about it! Good to see you don't just charge in and cut cut cut! Try to make a basic drawing of the tree - it does not need to be fantastic or artistic or average or a bit poor. It can actually just be shocking (which gives you no excuse). You'll be suprised at how much you can get a feel for it like this.

Here's a photo of a tree I bought a few months back. The question in my mind is whether or not I grow a new branch out of the bulge on the left of the trunk. A quick sketch (2 minutes) with marker pens answers that for me . . . . I prefer the drawing to the actual tree as the extra branch throws the foliage mass into a bit of an asymetric shape and I think it better highlights the negative space on the right of the trunk. Time to grow my grafting material!!!!

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So there you go, let's see a photo and a drawing! You can always take a photo of the drawing if you don't have a scanner etc.

Cheers,

Andrew

[Fukien beech]

here goes...I find it heart wrenching bringing the scissors to the branch. I have to be %100 sure before I make that cut! Although the more I contemplate, each idea gets better than the last..but I do want your guys direction please...literally!

have tried the drawing wow that puts things into perspective! Also gives my hand a rest from holding and pulling branches whilst imaging them not being there... remember, it is a Cedar..ouch!!

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All ideas, suggestions or better yet, as my very learned friend Gerard suggested a virt...will be welcomed and appreciated

[Gerard]

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I would keep as many branches as possible to begin with, shorten most and wire them at a downward angle.
The trunk has lots of movement so you should try to give the branches lots of movement as well. This means you will need to wire almost every inch of the tree.
This is quite different to my other suggestion but more simple and typical of the cedar species.

[Handy Mick]

Hi, I don't know your name, but that's not a bad drawing you have been issued, your material is quite good aswell, just don't forget to give your tree some depth! This means you need some branches in the rear as well, the branches to the sides don't just make them like sticks, give them a bit of movement left and right aswell. I would also put this one in a grow box.

Mick.

[NBPCA]

At this early stage unless you were wanting to create an eventual Literati; I would also leave as many as possible branches and branchlets and foliage.

This will help thicken up the trunk and base much quicker. A cedar in a pot will grow and thicken very slowly.

Grant

[Andrew Legg]

Can I ask a question. Why did you buy the tree? Rephrased, what made you buy this specific one?

[Gerard]

The other option I mentioned was a semi cascade

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[craigw60]

Grant has given you some very good advice there, cedar are so slow your best plan would be to spend some years developing the trunk.
Craigw

[Tony Bebb]

Hey FB?

If the branch you are thinking of removing is the one with your hand on it, I would not do it. The movement of the trunk is so strong to the right that losing a branch on the outside of that first strong bend would not suit the tree There seems to be a smaller branch at the same spot which would be the better suited branch in the long run. Follow Grants advice to start with to mature the tree and then look at cutting back to the group of branches above the second main bend for taper and to grow smaller branches.

Your original post you asked if what you were thinking with changing the branches 'made sense', and for this tree I don't think it does. Good thought process though, and very creative. Remember always and only

Best Regards

Tony

[Fukien beech]

Thank you ALL for taking out the time to offer suggestions and helping me with advice...I really appreciate

As I mentioned earlier, Im still new to bonsai and really...reading books and surfing the web for info is ok-but does not compare to you guys real advice, its more specific, practical amd professional. Thanks once again

Gerard- I wish I could attempt a semi cascade as I think they are awesome..maybe later on as I try and build up my confidence and skill. I used your drawing/pic as much as I could and have just finished shaping the tree...would appreciate your feed back please.

Tony thanks for your ideas...I wish I only read them before I started the shaping!! I think your opinions were great and will seek them in the future!-

Mick-Very handy indeed! Thanks for the inspiration

Mr Andrew...I chose this particular plant because a) I am Lebanese and love Cedars and b) I wanted a tree in the shape of the Cedar on Lebanon's flag! From the many I saw, this one seemed to be my best shot Also good tip about the drawing thing once again....my new second favourite hobby is drawing bonsai!!!

As suggested I left as many branches as possible to try and thicken the trunk (will remove at a later stage), I thought about every move I made a lot. I used heaps of wire and tried to include what I thought was suitable movement in the branches. Now its all done...(I think) and I will put up some photos very soon!

thanks family!!!

billy

[Fukien beech]

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Thanks